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  1. #601

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    Also, Lubov with a solid partner is threatening and can challenge a future russian pair. Unlike Ovcharova, Bariev and Shelepen, all three have struggled win under rotation and consistency.
    lubov wasn't that consistent in her final years with maisuradze either. i cannot seen her with whomever being a big threat to any of the top 4,5 russian pairs.
    so where's the danger for the fed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeschke View Post
    lubov wasn't that consistent in her final years with maisuradze either. i cannot seen her with whomever being a big threat to any of the top 4,5 russian pairs.
    so where's the danger for the fed?
    Lubov has won GP event with Maisuradze and finished 4th at the GPFs in 2010-2011. They also looked at that year to challenge B/L for the third russian spot until she blew it at the Russia nationals... Potential at this point she has is way stronger than others .

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    Shelepen is an amazing talent and you can argue that she had accomplishments just as great as Lubov. She might have dealt with injuries recently like most Russian teenagers, but she has the potential to medal at Euros for example.
    At this point, Russia would release talents to Italy, AZE or Israel, but not to France, the US or Canada. It is all strategic and political. The skaters are the victim of the system that encourages secret deals. The ISU should have a 1 or 2 year wait period for skaters wishing to switch countries and that is it. I don't believe for one second that Russia would have released Shelepen had she asked to skate for France or the US.

  4. #604

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    Russian team oficially announced: http://fsrussia.ru/upl/ckeditor/1135439.pdf

    Radionova is in the main team, Martyusheva/Rogonov in reserve.

    Main team:
    Pairs: Julia Antipova / Nodari Maisuradze, Vera Bazarova / Yuri Larionov, Tatiana Volosozhar /Maxim Trankov, Yuko Kavaguti / Alexander Smirnov, Ksenia Stolbova / Fedor Klimov, Evgenia Tarasova / Vladimir Morozov;

    Singles: Sergei Voronov, Artur Gachinski, Maxim Kovtun, Konstantin Menshov, Evgeni Plushenko;

    Nikol Gosviyani, Alena Leonova, Julia Lipnitskaya, Elena Radionova, Adelina Sotnikova, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva;

    Ice Dancing: Ekaterina Bobrova / Dmitri Soloviev , Elena Ilinykh / Nikita Katsalapov, Ksenia Monko / Kirill Khalyavin, Ekaterina Ryazanova / Ilia Tkachenko, Victoria Sinitsina / Ruslan Zhiganshin, Alexandra Stepanova / Ivan Bukin.

    Junior team:

    Pairs: Vygalova / Zakroev, Gainetdinova / Bich, Grechukhina / Filonov, Gubanova / Sintsov, Fedorova / Miroshkin, Chernyavskaya / Souza-Cordeiro;

    Singles: Genya, Kolyada, Kurbanov, Lezheev, Petrov, Pitkeev, Samarin, Tarasenko;

    Evgenia Gerasimova, Evgenia Medvedeva, Pogorilaya, Sakhanovitch, Sotskova, Stavitskaya, Titushkina;

    Ice Dancing: Baklanova / Bagin, Evdokimova / Bazin, Kosygina / Moroshkin, Morozova / Zhirnov, Popova / Vlasenko, Yanovskaya / Mozgov.


    Skaters born in 1993-2002:

    Pais: Nagalatiy / Bobrov, Poluyanova / Korotkov, Chuzhanova / Mintsev;

    Singles:Andruner, Bernadiner, Zuber, Kvitelahvili, Krasnozhon, Lazukin, Mikhailov, Savosin;

    Kolomiets, Yulia Li, Ogoreltseva, Pervushkina, Proklova, Tursynbaeva;

    Ice Dancing: Khachaturian / Eremenko, Shpilevaya / Smirnov.

    Reserve:

    Pairs: Astakhova / Kurdyukov, Gerboldt / Enbert, Davankova / Deputat, Martyusheva / Rogonov, Mitina / Shevchuk;

    Singles: Vladislav Sezganov;

    Polina Agafonova, Polina Korobeynikova, Ksenia Makarova, Anna Shershak;

    Ice Dancing: Zenkova / Sinitsin, Loseva / Lunin, Pushkash / Guereiro.
    Last edited by quiqie; 05-17-2013 at 03:56 PM.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    Shelepen is an amazing talent and you can argue that she had accomplishments just as great as Lubov. She might have dealt with injuries recently like most Russian teenagers, but she has the potential to medal at Euros for example.
    At this point, Russia would release talents to Italy, AZE or Israel, but not to France, the US or Canada. It is all strategic and political. The skaters are the victim of the system that encourages secret deals. The ISU should have a 1 or 2 year wait period for skaters wishing to switch countries and that is it. I don't believe for one second that Russia would have released Shelepen had she asked to skate for France or the US.
    It does have a pne- or two-year wait period, and a provision that the ISU Council can approve a change of federations if the skater's original federation does not do so on its own. What the ISU cannot do anything about, however, is the IOC's rule that an athlete must sit out three years before competing in the Olympics if the original federation does not grant a release.

    Now, if you want to rant against the IOC, please go right ahead.

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    Shelepen is an amazing talent and you can argue that she had accomplishments just as great as Lubov. She might have dealt with injuries recently like most Russian teenagers, but she has the potential to medal at Euros for example.
    At this point, Russia would release talents to Italy, AZE or Israel, but not to France, the US or Canada. It is all strategic and political. The skaters are the victim of the system that encourages secret deals. The ISU should have a 1 or 2 year wait period for skaters wishing to switch countries and that is it. I don't believe for one second that Russia would have released Shelepen had she asked to skate for France or the US.
    May be, Russia has invested heavily in these athletes and federation pays for these athletes training. Didn't Us block the release of several athletes since federation had payed for training (or travel grant etc), and unless they payed back for the money received. I absolutely don't believe shelpen is as talented as Lubov...

  7. #607

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeschke View Post
    you can not blame the fed, if they would finally have given up.
    but i doubt, they will get a host pick, too.

    really sad, i totally love this couple, but being fan of them, it's hard to watch most of the times.
    Same here. I have lowered my expectations of them at this point, no matter how lovely they are.

  8. #608

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    Martiusheva/Rogonov are listed in the Reserve Team and are #18 on the ISU Season Best scores list, so they should or could get an invite from another GP federation, if not a host pick.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  9. #609

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeschke View Post
    lubov wasn't that consistent in her final years with maisuradze either. i cannot seen her with whomever being a big threat to any of the top 4,5 russian pairs.
    so where's the danger for the fed?
    At some stage Lubov was pretty succesful with Maisuradze. It was only the last year (or two?) when the problems started, so we can't really judge what was the reason behind the deteriorating results. It could have been that she felt so bad about her conditions where she skated and about her coach and about her partner, that she was constantly stressed as a result and that could possibly account for having trouble with her jumps...we don't know.

  10. #610

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    Good news. Radionova made it! There were not all names in the article. See this link:

    http://www.fskate.ru/teams/russia/2013/

    (translated with google, so the names are sometimes not translated properly).

    I wonder why Davankova-Deputat are neither in senior nor in junior team. They are only in reserve. I thought that the skaters in reserve team were those who did not perform and therefore could not make neither junior nor senior team?



    ETA: Ops, sorry, I did not notice that quiqie has already posted the names.
    Last edited by hanca; 05-17-2013 at 07:12 PM.

  11. #611

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    I absolutely don't believe shelpen is as talented as Lubov...
    Well, Shelepen can do two different triple-triple in her program, which Lubov can't...but Lubov is definitely more expressive on the ice. So it depends how you measure the talent.
    Last edited by hanca; 05-17-2013 at 08:37 PM.

  12. #612

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    May be, Russia has invested heavily in these athletes and federation pays for these athletes training. Didn't Us block the release of several athletes since federation had payed for training (or travel grant etc), and unless they payed back for the money received. I absolutely don't believe shelpen is as talented as Lubov...
    The US is just as bad as Russia in this "releasing skaters game". The rules are just very cruel to the skaters involved. I feel just as bad for Morgan Matthews for example. Shelepen won 4 Junior Grand Prix, won silver at the JGPF, has all the triples, different 3-3s, terrific spins and flexibility. Russia almost sent her to Senior Worlds in Nice last year. It is almost impossible to compare her to a pair skater who has trouble rotating a 3T.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    It does have a pne- or two-year wait period, and a provision that the ISU Council can approve a change of federations if the skater's original federation does not do so on its own.
    Pairs and dance teams have a one-year waiting period, but it is rare that a one-year period applies to singles in practice. According to Rule 109/2/b/ii, a single can't participate in an international for Country 2 if s/he's competed for Country 1 within 12 months of 1 July of the season. This means someone who participated for Country 1 at Nebelhorn 2012 (2012-13 season) can't compete at Gardenia 2014 (2013-14), because s/he's competed for Country 1 within 12 months of 1 July 2013, the beginning of the season. The first international that skater can participate in is after 1 July 2014, a minimum of 23 months, if she competes in the earliest 2014-15 international. (September 2012-August 2014). The minimum wait would be about 16 months, April 2012 (the last international of the 2011-12 season)-August 2013 (the first international of the 2013-14 season).

    According to Rule 109/2/b/iii, a skater who's participated at 2012 Euros for Country 1 can't participate at Euros for Country 2 until 2015 Euros, because for the 2013-14 season (2014 Euros), s/he would have participated for Country 1 at an ISU championship within 18 months of 1 July 2013.

    This is also shown in Communication 1420, the communication referenced in Rule 109/7 (language added in the 2012 Constitution and Regs document):

    [4. Waiting Periods]

    Examples of waiting periods:
    a) Singles: a skater who represented Member A in any discipline during the 2006 ISU European Figure Skating Championships in February 2006 (last day of these EC being February 5) would be allowed, if all other requirements of Rule 109 are fulfilled, to represent Member B in singles only as of July 1, 2007 in International Competitions and as of July 1, 2008 in ISU Championships;
    In this case, the first Euros after July 1, 2008 would be in January 2009, or three years after the last time competing (Feb 2006).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    What the ISU cannot do anything about, however, is the IOC's rule that an athlete must sit out three years before competing in the Olympics if the original federation does not grant a release.

    Now, if you want to rant against the IOC, please go right ahead.
    The IOC's rules are finite and apply automatically. They don't require one Federation to make a request for an exception if a Federation refuses to grant a release. The 18-month ISU championship rule coupled with 1 July deadline means three years for ISU championships as well for singles skaters.

    Exceptions seem to be required to be requested by Members, in this case the new Federation, not the skaters, but this isn't completely clear. If true, it would mean that Federations would have to open a can of worms and get into an official ISU fight over skaters. However, 1420 clarifies:

    D. Exceptions – Final Information
    Although Rule 109, paragraphs 2.b) (iv) and 5 gives the Council the powers to grant exceptions from the requirements of citizenship, residence, permits by Members and waiting periods, it has always been the policy of the Council not to grant any exception simply for the skater to change Members. Exceptions might be granted only in cases where a serious hardship would occur without such exception (e.g. such as application of a new rule after certain action have been taken in good faith prior to adoption of the rule, unjustified denial of a permit by a Member to a skater who has not represented that Member at all or for a number of years, etc.).

    The Council has expressed its intent to continue this policy in the future.
    The Council does not specific the number of years not representing a Member that would cause them to deem the non-release as "unjustified." I've never read of any case for which an exception was applied, even when USFS had formal policy under which they would refuse release for up to four years, which they applied to Morgan Matthews (to skate for Canada), but not her partner, Maxim Zavozin (to skate for Hungary). I would think the ISU would have published a communication to address exception decisions, had there been any, since they do for other Council decisions on individual skaters, like Plushenko's re-instatement and various drug-related issues.

    What is interesting about 1420, is that it specifies certain situations where a skater does not need Federation release, but can make a declaration to the ISU, while at the same time recommending that skaters ask for release just in case, which may be why Bariev and Shelepen asked for release, even though it appears they could have made a declaration instead. Also, the document, as usual, doesn't have all of the info in the same place, and relying on one section would mean missing a key requirement in the other.

    For example:

    If a skater with dual citizenship wishes to leave the Member that he/she has represented to represent his/her other country-Member, then Rule 109, paragraph 3 applies and the clearance procedure is required.

    If a skater who has already represented any Member changes his/her citizenship, Rule 109, paragraph 3 applies and the clearance procedure is required.

    It is required even if a skater, having represented a Member without having citizenship of the country of that Member, is later granted such citizenship since it is a change of information given in the prior Clearance Certificate.
    This would suggest that any skater with multiple citizenships who has represented one country must have clearance from that Federation before competing for another country in which s/he holds citizenship.

    But, as usual, not so fast:

    3) Permit by the Member of which the skater is a citizen
    If a skater wishes to represent a Member in a country of which he/she is not a citizen, the second Member must ask the first Member for permission (release).

    The same applies in case that a skater with dual citizenship decides to change the Member whom he/she intends to represent in the future (Rule 109, paragraph 3).

    Only in a case that the skaters has either never lived in the country of which he/she is a citizen or at least has never skated in any national competition in that country, the permit may be replaced by a Declaration signed by the skater (or by the parents in case of a minor skater) in which such facts are clearly and unambiguously stated.

    The permit is not necessary if the skater has already filed an application for citizenship in the country of the Member that he/she intends to represent (Rule 109, paragraph 2.b (i)).

    The permit is neither required in case of a skater who forms a new pair or dance couple with a partner who is a citizen of the country of the Member which the pair or couple is going to represent, provided that such skater has never represented another Member.
    I'm guessing the never having competing in national competition for the new country is there for kids who were born in one country and lived there as small children, but never competed there.

    and

    C 3) Evidence proving the Permit by the Original Member:
    b) The permit is not required in case:
    (i) the skater has resided in the country of the new Member for more than a year and has applied for the citizenship of that country.


    This suggests that applying for citizenship is not enough to get an exception: there's a one-year residency requirement as well, but if citizenship is granted without residing in the new country, then residency isn't an issue. Had Shelepen only applied for Israeli citizenship, she wouldn't have met the residency requirement, and would have needed a release from the Russian Fed, but with citizenship, it appears she didn't actually need it. (And, it cost them nothing, since they had nothing to which to hold.)

    Neither Shelepen nor Bariev qualify under the rule that is underlined, because Rule 109/2/b, they would have needed to have lived in Israel/Italy for a year. From all accounts, the residency requirement was waived for Shelepen and was unnecessary for Bariev, since he got Italian citizenship through a birth parent. However, both should have qualified under the bolded statement dual citizens: Shelepen/Bariev never participated in the Israeli/Italian national competitions, and, AFAIK, neither Shelepen nor Bariev lived in Israel/Italy.

    There is then incentive for a skater to try to get citizenship where he or she never lived, like Shelepen, because then s/he doesn't need a Federation release, but that generally doesn't happen when the dual-citizenship is in two powerful Federations, like France and Russia and the US and Canada which have refused to release skaters to each other, since the residency requirements are rarely waived and being eligible to apply for citizenship usually depends on substantial residency and language requirements. I'm guessing this was the biggest barrier for Iliushechkina (and probably Petukhov): by the time she would be eligible to apply for citizenship, it would be like waiting for a release from the Russian Federation.

    Another interesting point in 1420: the July 1 rule (singles only) can be waived if citizenship is granted or the one-year residency period occurs after July 1 and the new Federation enters the skater 30 or more days before the start of the event.

    Since we've had many discussions about who does and doesn't need a release (permit, in ISU language):

    Needs a permit:
    • Any pairs or dance skater who has competed for one Member and wants to compete for another (ex: Ilishechkina)
    • Any singles skater who wants to compete for a Member where s/he's not a citizen of that country
    • Any singles skater who's competed for one Member and wants to compete for another (ex: Shelepen, Bariev)



    Unless/until
    • The singles skater has applied for citizenship (and may also have to meet the residency requirement) in the new country
    • The singles skater been granted or inherited citizenship in the new country without every having lived there or competed in that country's national competitions


    At least until 1420 is superseded by another communication.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 05-18-2013 at 05:24 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  14. #614

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    I saw Elena Radionova and her coach today and Elena hopes to get senior GP assignments. She really would love to compete on the senior GP.

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    She's #11 on the SB list and is guaranteed one, if the Russian Fed submits her for senior GP. The Russian Fed can keep a TBA for her if two other Feds don't pick her, or they want her locally.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  16. #616

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    The Russian fed has to make sure sotnikova and tuktamsheva have a great chance to make the gpf or be an alternate and they shouldn't put radionova up for a gp. In fact a host pick for cor Should be makarova.

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    They can only do that by sunbitting Radionova to JGP and leaving her off the list or strongarming the other Feds into not picking her for a second in initial selection or as an alternate. That won't guarantee the others sports at GPF, but it will keep her from making it, like Asada in 2005.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    Lubov has won GP event with Maisuradze and finished 4th at the GPFs in 2010-2011. They also looked at that year to challenge B/L for the third russian spot until she blew it at the Russia nationals... Potential at this point she has is way stronger than others .
    With all due respect to Lubov, the only reason they won Skate Canada was because the top teams who were assigned weren't there. The only reason they beat MT/M was because MT/M did bad in the short (5th place) and I/M only won by 0.48. Missing top teams were the reason they also got to go to the GPF as well. It was one of the weakest pairs GPF ever.

    They did good in juniors but in seniors they were very average at best. She should have stayed in Russia to find another partner and new coach. No country would have a better selection.

  19. #619

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    They can only do that by sunbitting Radionova to JGP and leaving her off the list or strongarming the other Feds into not picking her for a second in initial selection or as an alternate. That won't guarantee the others sports at GPF, but it will keep her from making it, like Asada in 2005.
    They should keep it simple and have her be jgp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    They should keep it simple and have her be jgp.
    I disagree. Radionova dominated the JGP last season and has nothing to gain by going back. The Russian Fed has to think about Radionova's development also, not just giving Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva/Lipnitskaia a better chance at making the final.

    On another note, I really hope Gosviani gets COR since that's probably her only chance of getting on the GP.

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