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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Tran and a new partner would go head-to-head with Takahashi/Kihara. T/K would have more automatic opportunities as Japan's lone entry, but if Tran's new partnership half as anointed as Gilles/Poirier, P/T should get some assignments as soon as he's released. If the Japanese Fed could keep him from getting international experience with his new partner for a season or two -- USFS held Piper Gilles for over two seasons from her last competition -- it would give T/K a head start.

    The Japanese Fed also might want compensation for training him up, and I'm not sure Skate Canada pays for skaters' releases. As far as I know, they didn't try to mess with Tikhonov or Markuntsev, but these might be different times.

    Good points here-

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    We've been around this on FSU many times. There's nothing anyone has been able to cite in the ISU Constitution or Regulations that addresses whether a citizen of a country can be held against his/her will if s/he's been skating for another Federation. The skater can apply for an exception, but that can only be applied for under Rule 109 after the release has been denied. Volosozhar, for example, was released by the Ukranian Federation to skate for Russia. It was not automatic once she was granted Russian citizenship.
    I think the whole idea of a "release" doesn't even come from the ISU Rules; it comes from the Olympic Charter:

    1. A competitor who is a national of two or more countries at the same time may represent either one of them, as he may elect. However, after having represented one country in the Olympic Games, in continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the relevant IF, he may not represent another country unless he meets the conditions set forth in paragraph 2 below that apply to persons who have changed their nationality or acquired a new nationality.

    2. A competitor who has represented one country in the Olympic Games, in continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the relevant IF, and who has changed his nationality or acquired a new nationality, may participate in the Olympic Games to represent his new country provided that at least three years have passed since the competitor last represented his former country. This period may be reduced or even cancelled, with the agreement of the NOCs and IF concerned, by the IOC Executive Board, which takes into account the circumstances of each case.
    http://www.olympic.org/Documents/olympic_charter_en.pdf

    Tran has never been a national of Japan. I surmise that he doesn't need a release to skate for Canada.

  3. #43
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    I don't think that's true, though. Volosozhar needed to be released by the Ukrainian Fed before she could compete internationally for Russia at the one-year mark of her last competition for Ukraine (the Vancouver Olympics). She received Russian citizenship quickly, because she was if Russian ancestry.

    The Olympics rule was to keep athletes from country hopping, and was more of a concern in Summer Olympics sports, although not unknown in winter sports.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  4. #44

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    Good to hear that Mervin found a new partner. It would have been a shame to lose him as a pair skater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    He's a Canadian citizen, and he will have sat out a complete season. I don't think he needs a release, but if he does, I think the Japanese Federation will be more than happy to give it to him, since they effectively "fired" him.
    It wasn't the Japanese Federation who "fired" him, it was Narumi. She decided to end the partnership, as Mervin said in the French article and other interviews/articles. The Japanese Federation always supported him (as he also confirmed) and according to my sources tried to keep the pair together. They were also supporting Mervin in his quest for citizenship.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    I think the whole idea of a "release" doesn't even come from the ISU Rules; it comes from the Olympic Charter:
    It's the ISU rules. You can't start representing another country unless your current federation agrees.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eislauffan View Post
    It wasn't the Japanese Federation who "fired" him, it was Narumi. She decided to end the partnership, as Mervin said in the French article and other interviews/articles. The Japanese Federation always supported him (as he also confirmed) and according to my sources tried to keep the pair together. They were also supporting Mervin in his quest for citizenship.
    Has she ever said publicly what her thinking process was? Was it entirely her idea, or did her Federation try tempt or pressure her?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I don't think that's true, though. Volosozhar needed to be released by the Ukrainian Fed before she could compete internationally for Russia at the one-year mark of her last competition for Ukraine (the Vancouver Olympics). She received Russian citizenship quickly, because she was if Russian ancestry..
    Volosozhar needed to be released because she was a Ukrainian citizen when she skated for Ukraine. Tran has never held Japanese citizenship. So what was required for her under the Olympic Charter wouldn't necessarily be required for her, and, as far I can tell, it isn't. And as for the ISU Rules....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's the ISU rules. You can't start representing another country unless your current federation agrees.
    Not exactly. You can alsp get permission from the ISU Council if your original federation refuses to grant the release:

    Rule 109(2) says:

    a) In principle, a Skater may compete only as a member of the Member of the country of which he is a citizen.

    b) A Skater may compete for the Member of the country of which he is not a citizen if he fulfils the following conditions:

    i) he has resided for at least one year in that country and has been permitted to compete for that Member by the National Association of the country of which he is a citizen, or he has resided for at least one year in that country and he (or his parents if he is not of age) has applied for citizenship in that country;

    ii) before July 1st immediately prior to his first International Competition as a member of the Member, he has not competed in any International Competition or ISU Championship for another Member during the twelve (12) preceding months;

    iii) before July 1st immediately prior to his first ISU Championship as a member of the Member, he has not competed in any International Competition or ISU Championship for another Member during the eighteen (18) preceding months;

    iv) Any denial of a request for permit by the Member submitted in accordance with sub-paragraph (i) above may be the subject of a request to the Council by the involved Skater or any involved Member for exceptional permission as provided in paragraph 5 of this Rule.

    c) In the case of a Pair Skating or an Ice Dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the Member for which the Pair Skating or Ice Dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b) i), ii), and iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies.

    ....

    5) Exceptions to paragraphs 2 & 3 of this Rule may be granted by the Council, which may also enter a Competitor for an event (see also Rule 115, paragraph 5 and Rules 130 and 131). A Competitor nominated by the ISU does not count in the quota of the country of his citizenship or residence.

    The Council may also reject an application from a Member for a permission that a Skater who has or had foreign citizenship may compete for that Member, although the formalities and requirements stated in this Rule have been met, if in the opinion of the Council granting such application would be contrary to the purpose and spirit of the Rule. (e.g. in case that a Member tries to “import” several athletes with foreign citizenship, in particular when such athletes should form a new national team of such Member or its substantial part).
    http://www5.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page...-0-file,00.pdf

    I think that if the matter had to come to a vote, Tran would get that release. And that's why it's hard to imagine the Japanese Federation forcing a vote by denying a release.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 03-21-2013 at 03:12 PM.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's the ISU rules. You can't start representing another country unless your current federation agrees.
    If you are a citizen of the country you wish to represent, your current federation really can't prevent you. A request to the ISU Council can overrule the objection.

    If you are not a citizen of the new country, then you are out of luck if your current federation says no. USFS allowed Piper Gilles to skate for Canada after a specified period of time. Piper at that time was not a Canadian citizen.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    If the Japanese Fed could keep him from getting international experience with his new partner for a season or two -- USFS held Piper Gilles for over two seasons from her last competition -- it would give T/K a head start.
    When Piper Gilles asked for her release she had already sat out one full season without competing in 2010-11. USFS agreed to release her after one season (2011-12).

    I'm sure we'll hear soon enough if Purich/Tran are eligible to compete internationally, if ready, in the fall of 2013.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    When Piper Gilles asked for her release she had already sat out one full season without competing in 2010-11. USFS agreed to release her after one season (2011-12).
    She had to wait to the beginning of a season, when her last event was part way through the season before she sat out. USFS could have released her immediately after 1.x seasons, but chose to hold her back for just the period where an exception could have been granted by the ISU. Even a two-year (total) hold would have made G/P eligible for late-season internationals and ranking points. The stall seems to have worked.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #50
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    There is a provision in the rules to force a release through a ISU Council vote, yes. But I can't remember it ever being invoked.

  11. #51

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    Short interview with Mervin Tran posted at Golden Skate: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post727133
    Tran: We started training together shortly after Four Continents. I believe by Day 1 we knew it was going to work out. By Day 3 we knew it was going to work out very well.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    There is a provision in the rules to force a release through a ISU Council vote, yes. But I can't remember it ever being invoked.
    Probably because it has never needed to be invoked.

    In Morgan Matthews' case, for example, the Canadian Federation probably realized it wouldn't get the votes (since she wasn't a Canadian citizen) and so it didn't force the issue. In Mervin Tran's case, if the release is really necessary for some reason, the Japanese Federation probably realizes that the Canadian Federation can get the votes, since he is a Canadian citizen and, in fact, has never held Japanese citizenship. And the Japanese Federation has shown in the past that it likes saving face, so it is very likely not to force a vote it will lose.

  13. #53
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    Matthews didn't need to be a Canadian citizen to get an exception: she could have been granted Permanent Residency. However, they refused to release her partner, so they wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Piper Gilles may still not be a Canadian citizen, but USFS held on to her enough but not too long to make it not worth anyone's while.

    It isn't clear whether the Japanese Federation will try to keep Tran out for another season by doing the same.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  14. #54

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    Mervin Train was not a Japanese citizen, and IS a Canadian citizen. I don't think the Japanese federation will try to stop him skating for his own country.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Short interview with Mervin Tran posted at Golden Skate: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post727133
    Thanks for posting! Wonderful to hear that the team clicked so quickly and that Tran thinks he can have even more success with Natasha.

    Given that Tran mentions going for the third spot at the Olympics, he seems to think that a release from Japan won't be an issue. It's possible that he's even had discussions with them, so I'm taking that as a good sign.

  16. #56

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    Tweeted by Mervin Tran today :
    "I wonder what are the chances of JSF inviting @tash_purich and I to NHK; would love to perform for the Japanese fans again."
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Matthews didn't need to be a Canadian citizen to get an exception: she could have been granted Permanent Residency. However, they refused to release her partner, so they wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Piper Gilles may still not be a Canadian citizen, but USFS held on to her enough but not too long to make it not worth anyone's while.
    Why hasn't Piper gotten Canadian citizenship yet? Isn't she an Olympic hopeful?

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Why hasn't Piper gotten Canadian citizenship yet? Isn't she an Olympic hopeful?
    We don't know that she hasn't. Once her mother gets/got citizenship through her mother (Gilles' maternal grandmother), Gilles would be eligible for citizenship. Weaver, who didn't qualify through her family but went through the Permanent Resident route, needed her citizenship to be expedited to compete at the Olympics. (She was already on the legal path to citizenship.)
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    I doubt she has her Canadian citizenship yet. If she recently tweeted about getting into Ryerson, I think she would have tweeted about having obtained her citizenship. Judging by other tweets, she may likely be actively pursuing that goal.
    Last edited by rvi5; 05-01-2013 at 01:39 PM.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    We don't know that she hasn't. Once her mother gets/got citizenship through her mother (Gilles' maternal grandmother), Gilles would be eligible for citizenship. Weaver, who didn't qualify through her family but went through the Permanent Resident route, needed her citizenship to be expedited to compete at the Olympics. (She was already on the legal path to citizenship.)
    I'm not sure it works that way. I was born in another Commonwealth country. I can get my kids citizenship in that country provided I do it before they turn 19. My kids, however, cannot expedite citizenship in that country for their kids. That privilege is only granted to the person actually born there. I don't actually know how it works in Canada, but if it is a similar situation, then Piper's mother may be able to get expedited citizenship through her mother who was born here, but that may not speed up Piper's citizenship process.

    That said, I'm sure SC could pull some strings if needed.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

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