View Poll Results: Patrick Chan- most held up and overscored skater in history, in any discipline

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  • yes

    216 61.71%
  • no

    134 38.29%
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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Thanks--do you have a link to the interview?
    http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-61-norbert-schramm/

    Small correction - a German official was told by a Russian official what the placements would be, and it was the German official who talked to Schramm's parents.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-61-norbert-schramm/

    Small correction - a German official was told by a Russian official what the placements would be, and it was the German official who talked to Schramm's parents.
    Thanks, overedge.

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    I know you hate this, but I'm gonna point out that consistent, clean skates under IJS is pretty much a myth. I can't think of a single skate that would realistically fit the bill. Can you?

    How much should PCS fluctuate? This intrigues me as well, because I'm pretty sure you're wrong about Chan's PCS fluctuating less than other skaters.
    First of all I realize completely clean is lesser under IJS. But three falls in a program is messy even for IJS. I can handle a stumble. I can even handle one fall. But here falls, that's ridiculous and out of line.

    Second in terms of competitors fluctuate, it depends on the competitor. But I think if you look at someone like Kozuka, who sometimes gets quite high PCS and sometimes PCS that aren't very at high. His PCS for a poor skate absolutely take more of a hit than Patrick Chan's do. Even Dai's PCS took more of a hit than Chan's did.

    I think there there should be mandatory deductions in P/E for multiple errors. I also think multiple falls/stumbles should hurt interpretation scores. And maybe even skating skills (should be a bit affected). One could argue how are transitions completely if leads to a mistake in a jump.

    Patrick should still get higher PCS than most, but PCS 89/90 with a messy performance-no. I say Perfect Patrick really would deserve a 10 in skating skills, but should be looking at an 8 when he's falling several times. When Patrick would be looking at 9's for performance/execution when he's perfect. I think 7s would be appropriate when he's falling multiple times.....Its still higher PCS than most get, but its reflecting that-what he displayed on this ice isn't great.

    And once again who wants to bet that if Patrick started getting HIT for messy performances, he might make some changes. He might get better coaching. He might make his programs a little less harder, to what he could reasonably due. And he'd probably be all around a better skater for it.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    First of all I realize completely clean is lesser under IJS. But three falls in a program is messy even for IJS. I can handle a stumble. I can even handle one fall. But here falls, that's ridiculous and out of line.

    Second in terms of competitors fluctuate, it depends on the competitor. But I think if you look at someone like Kozuka, who sometimes gets quite high PCS and sometimes PCS that aren't very at high. His PCS for a poor skate absolutely take more of a hit than Patrick Chan's do. Even Dai's PCS took more of a hit than Chan's did.

    I think there there should be mandatory deductions in P/E for multiple errors. I also think multiple falls/stumbles should hurt interpretation scores. And maybe even skating skills (should be a bit affected). One could argue how are transitions completely if leads to a mistake in a jump.

    Patrick should still get higher PCS than most, but PCS 89/90 with a messy performance-no. I say Perfect Patrick really would deserve a 10 in skating skills, but should be looking at an 8 when he's falling several times. When Patrick would be looking at 9's for performance/execution when he's perfect. I think 7s would be appropriate when he's falling multiple times.....Its still higher PCS than most get, but its reflecting that-what he displayed on this ice isn't great.

    And once again who wants to bet that if Patrick started getting HIT for messy performances, he might make some changes. He might get better coaching. He might make his programs a little less harder, to what he could reasonably due. And he'd probably be all around a better skater for it.
    I guess it's never too late to reply towards the end of October to a post that was made towards the end of March.

    Keep up the good work, bek.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andofanatic View Post
    Plushenko probably deserved all his wins but his scores at the 2006 Olympics were a joke. Well he did beat Yagudin more times than he deserved to probably.
    In International competitions? No, never. Nor the other way around.

    Plushenko and Yuna, for example, were indeed overscored when they won their OGM, it is a trend to award the winners generous scores, but it had no impact on the outcome, anyway.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andofanatic View Post
    Well he did beat Yagudin more times than he deserved to probably.
    Can you tell me an example?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    In International competitions? No, never. Nor the other way around.

    Plushenko and Yuna, for example, were indeed overscored when they won their OGM, it is a trend to award the winners generous scores, but it had no impact on the outcome, anyway.
    Kim wasn't really overscored any. Had Asada done a clean LP, given some extra GOE and PCS without the 2 mistakes, her LP would have scored only about 6 points lower. Considering Asada had only a similar base value to Kim and deserved lower GOE and PCS, she would not have deserved a hypothetical higher score. Ando without a triple-triple or triple flip scored in the high 130s at next years Four Continents, and that with rule changes that lowered scores so would have been over 140 otherwise. Kim obviously deserves a higher score than Ando. So anything lower than 150 would be an incorrect score comparatively.

    Plushenko was overscored however.

  8. #208

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    To me, Irina Slutskaya was the most consistently overscored and held-up skater ever. (Or at least since I started watching in 1991.) She was overscored/held up over a much longer period of time than Patrick. But certain specific overscoring incidents with Patrick, such as this past Worlds, were worse than any specific incident with Irina. Just my opinion.

  9. #209

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    I think this pre-Olympics season will tell us a lot.

    If Patrick skates great, he will undoubtedly be on top. If not, I'm not so sure the judges are going to overlook that anymore, especially with his history and the Olympics coming up.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  10. #210
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    I still believe that Chan could benefit enormously from being tied to a chair and forced to watch all his programs from 2009 - now.

    He would see that while he has learned to do a quadruple toe loop, he has yet to fully master the triple axel and the triple lutz. His repeated mistakes on these jumps is only evident if you watch the programs and then recognize the pattern.

    While Chan can do all the turns - counters, brackets, choctaws, 3-turns and mohawks - and he has incorporated them into his skating as transitions (his favorite to use os a bracket turn) to gain higher marks, he still uses them as "tricks" for points and none of these appear "artistic" to me, i.e. doing a counter turn because it goes with the music.

    What do I mean by this? I will reference everyone to watch a Toller Cranstom program from 1989 or so when he skated to "Le Corsaire" with SOI. In it, on at least two occasions, he does a choctaw TO THE MUSIC, and it is artistic and wonderful. If he had simple done one without the music or in another place, it would simply be a turn with no artistry.

    For me, Chan exhibits, "turns without artistry," and actually, if he were skating in the days when the Men had to compete figures, ALL the Men would be doing ALL the turns.

    Chan is only good in transitions by relative comparison, as most skaters today would not recognize a figure even if a scribe was used to draw it on the ice. I venture to say a lot of younger skaters can not even do choctaws and counter and all the bracket turns.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by clairecloutier View Post
    To me, Irina Slutskaya was the most consistently overscored and held-up skater ever. (Or at least since I started watching in 1991.) She was overscored/held up over a much longer period of time than Patrick. But certain specific overscoring incidents with Patrick, such as this past Worlds, were worse than any specific incident with Irina. Just my opinion.
    Irina is a funny case as she was often overscored but she also never won a medal she probably didnt deserve. The only ones I would have arguably not given her are the 1996 Worlds bronze and 2002 Olympics silver. Well those and the one obvious, the 2002 Grand Prix final title. She often received inflated scores and ordinals, a questionable placing in a particular program at times, and near misses of things she shouldnt have even been close to, but almost always the final overall result was correct.

    Chan on the other hand has probably only deserved his final placement in 30% of the international events he has been in since after the 2010 season.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Irina is a funny case as she was often overscored but she also never won a medal she probably didnt deserve. The only ones I would have arguably not given her are the 1996 Worlds bronze and 2002 Olympics silver. Well those and the one obvious, the 2002 Grand Prix final title. She often received inflated scores and ordinals, a questionable placing in a particular program at times, and near misses of things she shouldnt have even been close to, but almost always the final overall result was correct.

    Chan on the other hand has probably only deserved his final placement in 30% of the international events he has been in since after the 2010 season.
    Answer: I think we should begin a new post: how many aliases does JudgeJudy have? Try to guess which they are & on which forums.

  13. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanne7 View Post
    Answer: I think we should begin a new post: how many aliases does JudgeJudy have? Try to guess which they are & on which forums.
    Judgejudy, Pairs8 ++++ keeps the TRASH can full.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  14. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by PairSk8Fan View Post
    Chan is only good in transitions by relative comparison, as most skaters today would not recognize a figure even if a scribe was used to draw it on the ice. I venture to say a lot of younger skaters can not even do choctaws and counter and all the bracket turns.
    Totally disagree. They need to be able to do them in order to get the levels in their footwork.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Judgejudy, Pairs8 ++++ keeps the TRASH can full.
    Hmm. Never thought of anyone doing that. But Judge Judy is why God made the ignore feature along with little green apples.

  16. #216
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    I actually enjoy JJ's posts keeps me laughing... they say its the best medicine.

  17. #217

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    I have read many knowledgeable posts by Judgejudy. I agree with some and don't agree with others, but I can see that this poster knows about FS. I have learned a few things about skaters that I was not aware of, from some of JJ's posts. You may not agree with the opinion expressed, but that happens with many posters. No need to trash a poster that has contributed so much to the board.

    Now don't tell me I have no sense of humor.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I have read many knowledgeable posts by Judgejudy. I agree with some and don't agree with others, but I can see that this poster knows about FS. I have learned a few things about skaters that I was not aware of, from some of JJ's posts. You may not agree with the opinion expressed, but that happens with many posters. No need to trash a poster that has contributed so much to the board.

    Now don't tell me I have no sense of humor.

  19. #219

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    Is Patrick Chan the most overscored and held up skater in history?
    Probably not since the 1968 Olympic Men's Champion won because of an accidental overscore by the Canadian judge. Had the judge wrote the score correctly, Tim Wood would have won.

  20. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I have read many knowledgeable posts by Judgejudy. I agree with some and don't agree with others, but I can see that this poster knows about FS. I have learned a few things about skaters that I was not aware of, from some of JJ's posts. You may not agree with the opinion expressed, but that happens with many posters. No need to trash a poster that has contributed so much to the board.
    Oh really?
    Everyone has the right of opinion. But when one's opinions include trashing skaters, bias and incorrect statements, that is acceptable? I suppose it depends who JJ is bashing eh? I don't believe in 'bashing' skaters because someone's son or daughter could be mine too. So would you rather that I go after the skaters or the poster who consistently make ridiculous posts about some skaters You live by the sword you die by the sword.
    You want a good example of a knowledgeable and gracious poster who try her/his best to keep personal bias away from posts? Give me gkelly anytime. IMO, JJ contribute nothing but her skewed opinions and bashing of skaters.
    Last edited by spikydurian; 10-24-2013 at 11:51 PM.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

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