Is Patrick Chan the most overscored and held up skater in history

[alilou]

I don't think so. I think the score was just included the Olympic inflation. Considering that Joannie Rochette who didn't had 3-3 and missed at 3 jumps, got 200+.
It's just my opinion, If you do not agree, can ignore...

Where did you get this from - that Joannie didn't have a 3-3, and missed at 3 jumps
Joannie did a 7 triple FS at the Olympics including a triple (toe I think) half loop 3S sequence (not a 3-3 but still 2 triple jumps in one jumping pass). Her only mistake was a step out on the flip. Seven triples with a step out on the flip the only mistake. All the rest were clean. Later in the program she intended a 2A 2A sequence and left off the second 2A. I remember being disappointed because if she'd done it she'd have beaten Mao for the silver.

[mossop]

The one who passes judgements by demeaning and insulting is more a reflection of one's character than the object of judgement.

[neptune]

Read the transcript of the interview. A Russian official told Schramm's parents the night before the Olympic skating competition started that he (the official) had been told where Schramm would place.

Thanks--do you have a link to the interview?

[TheIronLady]

One of the more overlooked falls in the history of skating I thought was Sale and David Pelletier's in the 2002 SP. I think if we are going to highlight falls that did not get discussed or factored in, that seemed to be one.

[Vash01]

One of the more overlooked falls in the history of skating I thought was Sale and David Pelletier's in the 2002 SP. I think if we are going to highlight falls that did not get discussed or factored in, that seemed to be one.

Under the 6.0 system it did not get much of a penalty because it did not occur while they attempted an element. Under COP it would have cost them 1 point. Regardless, B&S should have beaten them by a mile in that SP, but the Canadian judge and the German judge placed S&P higher. Why were they not questioned about it?

[Southpaw]

You mean judge judy.
The judge jury has no issues with him

But where does the executioner stand on the issue of Chanflation?

[kosjenka]

Oh please.
My rep status on FSU offends me - that I how much I dislike Chan and still...
Have you forgotten "wait your turn" policy during 6.0?

Chan is small potatoes.

[Aussie Willy]

But where does the executioner stand on the issue of Chanflation?

The executioner stands by the barrier and just yells out insults these days. An axe is considered a bit of a safety risk.

However throwing axes at Patrick Chan would probably make a really interesting video game. I am sure some of the posters here would really like a game like that.

[Proustable]

I've gotta ask, what happens to Chan's legacy if he deserves to win the Olympics. Like inarguably (think 4CC 2012 or Worlds 2011).

[lauravvv]

I've gotta ask, what happens to Chan's legacy if he deserves to win the Olympics. Like inarguably (think 4CC 2012 or Worlds 2011).

I guess there is a possibility that some people would change their mind just a little, but most of those who think as the title of this thread states would most likely still cling to the instances when he has won unfairly and/or has been overscored in their opinion. I have observed that especially people here on FSU have very good memory when they choose so.

[bek]

I've gotta ask, what happens to Chan's legacy if he deserves to win the Olympics. Like inarguably (think 4CC 2012 or Worlds 2011).

He will be a deserving Olympic Champ. But I am still mad about the titles others should have won. In fact I think its very likely the judges will ensure that Chan doesn't win with like this, but I'm still going to be angry and upset about the titles Chan has, unfairly. To me this last two years of his "dominating" with consistently messy skates is one of the darkest eras in men's skating, I've seen in recent memory in terms of watching results.

I say that I think its likely but a part of me is very sure we will see the same crap because of this stupid system. I almost look forward to the scandal the sport is certainly going to get.

The entire thing is frustrating because Chan's skating is magnificent. If he wasn't rewarded so highly when he's playing human zamboni he'd probably reduce his content to something he could actually do consistently, and he'd be mind boggling. But instead he crams in the difficulty he can't do altogether at once cleanly. And before those argue with me, did he skate his free clean once this season (I can't fully remember?) And then falls over the place. But since execution matters little in this sport....

Kostner went from being roundly criticized to roundly loved by many more people who she slowed the heck down and got more control of her skating.

[fscric]

I've gotta ask, what happens to Chan's legacy if he deserves to win the Olympics. Like inarguably (think 4CC 2012 or Worlds 2011).

You think this will shut them up? I've seen complaints about 4CC 2012 and Worlds 2011, too. Others can win with flawed programmes but Patrick is required to skate flawless programmes and even then they will still surely find ways to nitpick.

[bek]

You think this will shut them up? I've seen complaints about 4CC 2012 and Worlds 2011, too. Others can win with flawed programmes but Patrick is required to skate flawless programmes and even then they will still surely find ways to nitpick.

Patrick does more than just have "one flaw" He normally has multiple flaws in his program. If he was just having one stumble, one or two double foots, people really wouldn't be complaining.

That's something Chan fans don't get. Its the fact that he has multiple errors, glaring errors quite often that gets people angry.

And the issue is how often Patrick gets held up. I actually could have lived with last year's world title, if the judges hadn't topped that one off by giving Chan the free skate too. And then there was the GPF last year too same scenario.. sigh. He did have a big lead and Dai/Hanyu flubbed. But Patrick had so many wins with multiple falls, multiple mistakes that it adds up. And its not like his errors are just one popped jump, or one double foot, like Kim use to have.

The thing is for me what makes sports exciting is when anyone can win. I.e in basketball sometimes a lesser team or a team that is not as expected to perform well can win the championship just by peaking and performing well at the same time.

It would have been absolutely great think if Ten had won this. Just for the perception of the sport that reputation isn't everything. And in Denis favor his rep had more to do with inconsistency than poor skating skills..

[Proustable]

People did complain about his Worlds 2011 LP beating Kozuka's, and the fall/not-fall from the 2012 4CC SP, but the actual victories themselves were reasonably acclaimed.

bek, do you think La Boheme was really harder than Aranjuez or Phantom? He did skate the latter cleanly, and the former near clean (just a stutter on a landing). As for La Boheme, his skate at CoR was his cleanest - no falls, but two pops (axel, loop) as well as doubling out the salchow on the combo. But no step-outs or anything.

I wonder if the ISU realizes how lucky it was in 2006 and 2010 to have so many clear winners (the only unclear winner would've been Lysacek, but that was controversial in the right way)

[bek]

People did complain about his Worlds 2011 LP beating Kozuka's, and the fall/not-fall from the 2012 4CC SP, but the actual victories themselves were reasonably acclaimed.

bek, do you think La Boheme was really harder than Aranjuez or Phantom? He did skate the latter cleanly, and the former near clean (just a stutter on a landing). As for La Boheme, his skate at CoR was his cleanest - no falls, but two pops (axel, loop) as well as doubling out the salchow on the combo. But no step-outs or anything.

I wonder if the ISU realizes how lucky it was in 2006 and 2010 to have so many clear winners (the only unclear winner would've been Lysacek, but that was controversial in the right way)

Patrick rarely skates clean Proustable. He did those programs clean what once or twice? I kind of rest my case, here to be frank. Being able to do it once or twice, doesn't count. Well everyone gets lucky once in awhile. That's the issue with Patrick. He jam packs his programs but her rarely skates them clean.. So it feels like he gets rewarded for something he really isn't showing he can do-or master.

And yes he clearly has absolutely gorgeous skating skills. But I'm saying that even those with the best skills need to think realistically about what they can-can't do. Quality matters....

And yes I know Kim did win with few clean skates, but with Kim she almost always did her harder elements, and then she'd maybe pop one jump, double foot one... Its just not the same.

This isn't about though shall not fall but its saying multiple mistakes really affects the performance and impression.

And people had issues not so much with Chan's win in 2011 as how much his PCS were higher than Kozuka. Its the feeling many have that Chan's competitors don't get credit. The fact that Kozuka's PCS goes up and down depending on the performance sometimes big time is another illustration of why Chan's scores feel unfair. Even Hanyu's PCS once again quite a bit lower. But the judges with a world championship on the line hand Patrick similar PCS to what he gets when he skates well.

If everyones PCS were static I think it would be understandable. But what happens is the lesser skaters PCS tend to be static, but a lot of the top/somewhat top skaters PCS fluctuate.

This being said I was in Awe. just Awe. of Chan's short.

[Zokko!]

Soo yes, yes, yes. First Klutz L. became "Olympic Champion", than Candyman C. & the judges, who love to crawl one's a**** into each other, it's one huge nail in the coffin of figure skating. At least to me, once I loved it, now I hardly care any-more.

[TheIronLady]

Soo yes, yes, yes. First Klutz L. became "Olympic Champion", than Candyman C. & the judges, who love to crawl one's a**** into each other, it's one huge nail in the coffin of figure skating. At least to me, once I loved it, now I hardly care any-more.

Who is Klutz L?

[Proustable]

Patrick rarely skates clean Proustable. He did those programs clean what once or twice? I kind of rest my case, here to be frank. Being able to do it once or twice, doesn't count. Well everyone gets lucky once in awhile. That's the issue with Patrick. He jam packs his programs but her rarely skates them clean.. So it feels like he gets rewarded for something he really isn't showing he can do-or master.

I know you hate this, but I'm gonna point out that consistent, clean skates under IJS is pretty much a myth. I can't think of a single skate that would realistically fit the bill. Can you?

How much should PCS fluctuate? This intrigues me as well, because I'm pretty sure you're wrong about Chan's PCS fluctuating less than other skaters.

Who is Klutz L?

Probably Lysacek, though it doesn't make sense to me

[TheIronLady]

Before 96, clean programs that were technically demanding were rare I think. Ridiculously easy performances by Katarina Witt, for example, were clean. Her Carmen was so structurally simple, with 30 seconds of posing in the middle without any skating. She obviously recognized the value of being "clean." I think we think too much about the 96-03 era when we make judgments. The 89-95 era was a time of technical progress and change in singles, and didn't people have falls and still finish way above others who were clean? In order for the sport to progress in complexity, I think there does have to be some acceptance that there will be falls in some of the overall best, most challenging programs.

I don't know, though, that Chan meets my criteria ("overall best" and "most challenging"), but Christine Brennan's rhetoric is overblown. Her knowledge of skating extends back no further than 1994.

[nubka]

No. The Kween gets that honor!