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  1. #61
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    Is it the general sentiment here that having children when you're young is a bad thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It is. They are exploiting their daughters and the misogyny and patriarchy means they can't realise their potential.
    Most people don't reach their potential.

    Oh, but the Duggar girls don't even have a chance.

    Neither do most people.

    On the scale of "People Who Don't Make The Most of Themselves Because Their Parents Totally Screwed Them Up," the Duggar girls are doing pretty well.

    I realize that in an ideal world, everyone's lives would reflect the values of the majority here--that life is all about getting a formal education, seeking self-fulfillment, and preferably living without religion at all--but it's not an ideal world . Isn't it for them to decide for themselves what self-fulfillment means? What is the difference between their parents telling them "This is how you should live in order to lead a good life" and everyone else telling them "This is how you should live in order to lead a good life"?

    None of us create ourselves, no matter how much we like to think we do.
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I realize that in an ideal world, everyone's lives would reflect the values of the majority here--that life is all about getting a formal education, seeking self-fulfillment, and preferably living without religion at all--but it's not an ideal world . Isn't it for them to decide for themselves what self-fulfillment means? What is the difference between their parents telling them "This is how you should live in order to lead a good life" and everyone else telling them "This is how you should live in order to lead a good life"?
    I don't think being religious precludes pursuing dreams and aspirations, developing a career or getting married at an older age if you so choose. I know religious women who have done all these things, or some of these things, rather than staying at home to look after their siblings while their mother has another baby that they will have to care for. The point most people here seem to be getting at is that the Duggar girls were never given a choice; they didn't choose their life, it was chosen for them. That's not to say they would have chosen college-career-marriage if they had other options, just that the decision doesn't appear to have even a been possibility for them.

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    Unless their parents have locked the children in the house every moment that they're not on TV, I don't think the girls have had any fewer choices than any child raised by strict parents, no matter what their religion. And in any case, none of the Duggar girls are married yet, are they? How do we know what they'll choose? And even if they do choose home, family, etc, who's to say it isn't their choice?
    I'd rather be thought of as absolutely ridiculous than as absolutely boring.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    Is it the general sentiment here that having children when you're young is a bad thing?
    This is FSU. You know there is no such thing as a "general sentiment."
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

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    As some of you know, I have no problem with religion. Nor do I have any problem with childbearing in one's twenties (I had hoped to do it myself, only it didn't work out). But while I appreciate Prancer's point of view and think she expressed it well, I do think there are some spiritually abusive philosophies and practices that are part of the belief systems that the Duggars are associated with. When I say "spiritually abusive," I'm referring to things like coercion, degradation, and emotional blackmail -- to treating women and children as inferior and a means to an end. And as with most forms of abuse, while it's possible to walk away from them, it's not always easy.

    (For those who want to learn more on the subject, Hillary MacFarland's book "Quivering Daughters" is a good place to start.
    Charter member of the "We Always Believed in Ashley" Club and the "We Believe in Ricky" Club
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    As some of you know, I have no problem with religion. Nor do I have any problem with childbearing in one's twenties (I had hoped to do it myself, only it didn't work out). But while I appreciate Prancer's point of view and think she expressed it well, I do think there are some spiritually abusive philosophies and practices that are part of the belief systems that the Duggars are associated with. When I say "spiritually abusive," I'm referring to things like coercion, degradation, and emotional blackmail -- to treating women and children as inferior and a means to an end. And as with most forms of abuse, while it's possible to walk away from them, it's not always easy.

    (For those who want to learn more on the subject, Hillary MacFarland's book "Quivering Daughters" is a good place to start.
    Yes. And that book is a very good place to start. As is Katheryn Joyce's Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement

    I would also suggest reading about Michael and Debi Pearl's "No Greater Joy" ministries which is linked and recommended on the Duggar family's website. Their child discipline materials have been linked to abusive deaths of very young children. The Duggars use their "blanket training" method and who knows what else from their very abusive philosophies that include corporal punishment even for infants. I'm sorry, but child abuse is not a topic that I will say "live and let live" about.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Y
    The Duggars use their "blanket training" method and who knows what else from their very abusive philosophies that include corporal punishment even for infants.
    And you know this how?
    Last edited by milanessa; 03-13-2013 at 05:11 PM.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    And you know this how?
    From the horse's mouth:

    http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2012...f-control.html

    Scroll to the bottom of this article where there is a screen cap of the Duggar family website's links to materials by the Pearls:

    http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2012...f-control.html

    On their current site this page links Vision Forum, ATI, The Botkin sisters' materials on "Stay at Home Daughters" and a number of other patriarchy organizations.

    http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/resources

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    What is the difference between their parents telling them "This is how you should live in order to lead a good life" and everyone else telling them "This is how you should live in order to lead a good life"?
    It has been a good while since we had the relativity discussion but I thought we had come to a consensus that it is a zero sum game to say we shouldn't be judgmental, or that we shouldn't advocate a particular viewpoint ...since that is also judgmental, or advocating a particular viewpoint. There is no way to pull yourself out of the equation and not be taking a position of proper behavior - even if you are advocating no position at all, that is still a position.

    I don't know dippy doo about the Duggars but I think patriarchy sucks. And I am happy to say it. :-)
    What would Jenny do?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Not exactly. Who are Lily and Ellie?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaphyre14 View Post
    Unless their parents have locked the children in the house every moment that they're not on TV, I don't think the girls have had any fewer choices than any child raised by strict parents, no matter what their religion. And in any case, none of the Duggar girls are married yet, are they? How do we know what they'll choose? And even if they do choose home, family, etc, who's to say it isn't their choice?
    Whatever genuine exposure the Duggar children may have had to the world outside/beliefs other than their own, is likely under tightly controlled conditions; which makes the idea of real "choice" in the the matter, questionable.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    Not exactly. Who are Lily and Ellie?
    You are very invested in these people being paragons of virtue, aren't you? Here is Michelle explaining how she does it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvsCI3O_sj4

    Note that the first link quotes an interview with Michelle. Do you need her to come to your house and show you her "To Train Up a Child" book? It has great material in it about hitting kids with piping. Or there is the Botkin sisters' book and site recommended on the Duggars' own website which teaches young women to strive to serve their fathers, think like their fathers and perhaps come to the Vision Forum daddy daughter retreat where they can shave their fathers as an act of servitude. Or Debi Pearl's book "Created to Be His Helpmeet" which explains to women that if their husband abuses them it is because they are not submissive enough.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    You are very invested in these people being paragons of virtue, aren't you? Here is Michelle explaining how she does it:
    Not at all. I wouldn't choose that lifestyle and think it's not a good way to raise children.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I don't think being religious precludes pursuing dreams and aspirations, developing a career or getting married at an older age if you so choose. I know religious women who have done all these things, or some of these things, rather than staying at home to look after their siblings while their mother has another baby that they will have to care for. The point most people here seem to be getting at is that the Duggar girls were never given a choice; they didn't choose their life, it was chosen for them. That's not to say they would have chosen college-career-marriage if they had other options, just that the decision doesn't appear to have even a been possibility for them.
    Of course it's a possibility. A probability? Maybe not. But it's not impossible.

    What did your parents tell you to do with your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    It has been a good while since we had the relativity discussion but I thought we had come to a consensus
    On FSU? I don't think that's ever happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    I don't know dippy doo about the Duggars but I think patriarchy sucks. And I am happy to say it. :-)
    And that's great of you and all; now tell me why the Duggars should agree with you.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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    PDilemma, thanks for detailing why I doubt that "choice" exists for/in families who practice this belief system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    I'm referring to things like coercion, degradation, and emotional blackmail -- to treating women and children as inferior and a means to an end.
    I've never liked the way the Duggar parents force their four oldest daughters to act as unpaid full-time servants. Sure, it's common for kids to have chores, but this is far beyond that.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post

    And that's great of you and all; now tell me why the Duggars should agree with you.


    Essentially, you are asking me to make an argument for my position - perfectly fine. I believe gender equality is a superior position to patriarchy -

    1) Based on an assumed a moral truth that women and men are equally free, and therefore should have equal ability to make their own choices about education, career and family. To restrict the choices of females to wife and mother, ruled by father or husband, denies any moral truth that women are created equal to men, and are created equally free, free to pursue options as they desire. Similarly, to limit the choices of males to bread winner and authoritarian denies their full agency.

    2) Because promoting gender equality can promote economic growth, increased GDP, and improved social welfare. http://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXT...851055,00.html http://www.economonitor.com/blog/201...off-in-brazil/

    3) Diversity in leadership improves creativity, problem solving, morale, productivity, etc.

    http://www.neeley.tcu.edu/News_and_E...dvantages.aspx


    Do I think that would change the minds of the Duggars? No, but that is only partly the point. Advocating for your ideas helps ensure those ideas won't die. Religions know evangelism works. They have been doing it for millennia.
    What would Jenny do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Of course it's a possibility. A probability? Maybe not. But it's not impossible.

    What did your parents tell you to do with your life?
    They did not tell me to do anything other than to make sure I leave myself a variety of options (=do well enough in school). Other than that, I made my own choices and if I ever wanted their advice, I asked for it. Certainly they never imposed their beliefs on me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    Essentially, you are asking me to make an argument for my position - perfectly fine.
    I was asking directly, not essentialyl, or so I thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    Do I think that would change the minds of the Duggars? No, but that is only partly the point.
    And those are all good arguments, although they address the issue from a standpoint irrelevant to the Duggars.

    So perhaps more to the point--in what way does it matter to any of your arguments that this one family does what they do--or even that people in their entire movement do what they do? All of your arguments (except the first one) were about society overall.

    There aren't enough of these people to make any difference to society. There is no chance that their way of life will become dominant or will be imposed on the rest of us. There is no indication that their movement is becoming widespread.

    So society will continue to develop as it will without the Duggars or their input.

    As for your moral argument, one must assume that it is true in order to agree with it. Let us say that most of us assume that it is true. Do we have the right to impose that particular belief on everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    They did not tell me to do anything other than to make sure I leave myself a variety of options (=do well enough in school). Other than that, I made my own choices and if I ever wanted their advice, I asked for it. Certainly they never imposed their beliefs on me.
    I'll bet the Duggar girls would say the same of their parents. Because your parents impose their beliefs on your every single day of your life with them--whether you realize it or not. There is no way to avoid it. I impose my beliefs on my children by living in the way that I think I should and raising them as I believe they should be raised. That's what parents do. You are your beliefs. It can't be any other way. If I believe that my children should make their own choices about their adult lives, then I am going to raise them that way--and impose upon them the responsiblity of making choices rather than choosing for them.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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