The 4 quad debate

[johndockley92]

I know that a lot of fans are anticipating the days we see 4 quad programs and a handful of skaters are working on such programs as well. However, I think that it's simply not worth it.

Assuming a skater can do 4S and 4T, it'd likely be smarter to do two of their strongest quad and one of the weaker one. Let's take Max Aaron for example. If he does two 4S and two 4Ts then he can only do one 3A. In essence the second 4T would be replacing a 3A. 4T is worth only 1.8 more than a 3A, which in a close finish may make the difference of even two placements, however if for instance Max's Axel is on, he can get positives on it. Now, I've never seen his toe completed in a program, but I assume that any new jump would be weaker than a jump he has done for many years already. In my opinion, for a skater to do a fourth quad, that quad should be as consistent as their triple axel, or else it isn't worth it at all. There's no reason to take such a huge risk over less than 2 points. Just my opinion anyways

[TheIronLady]

Tim Goebel might have benefited from being allowed to do 4 quads. I think you are right, but maybe there are unusual skaters like Goebel heading toward a 4 quad program soon. His 3A seemed less consistent in competition than his quads.

[misskarne]

Is there a rule that says he can't do two 3As if he does four quads?

I am cautiously for it; I would like to see it but ONLY if the skater who tries it can do so without putting himself at unneccessary risk. Given Max is a Tom Z skater I am especially wary.

[briancoogaert]

Is there a rule that says he can't do two 3As if he does four quads?

The Zayac Rule. I think it's for repeating quad and triples, right ?

Plus, if you do two quad toe, one must be in combo, same for quad sal. So, in fact, by repeating those 2 quads, you have to be good at quad/triple combo. If not, it's better in term of points to do 3Axel/3Toe, than 4Toe/2Toe. Am I right ?

[sequinsgalore]

Is there a rule that says he can't do two 3As if he does four quads?

If he has three different quads in his arsenal (I don't think anyone has), he can do four quads and two 3As eg. 4T, 4T+2T, 4S, 4F, 3A, 3A+2T (and two other jumping passes)

[Skittl1321]

Is it better to do a quad-double or a triple-triple?

[Sylvia]

The base value of a 4T+2T is worth more than 3Lz+3T, but it also depends on GOE - link to the current ISU Scale of Values document: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3589

[Seerek]

Theoretically, i believe that someone could do something along the lines of

4S+3T
4S
4T+2T
4T
3X
3Z+1/2R+3S
3R
3F

and there would be no invalid elements or extra combinations

[gingercrush]

Ok a bit OT but if the Triple Loop was the first ever triple why is it no one has attempted a Quad Loop yet we have had several Quad Lutz and Flip attempts (both ratified??) and several skaters that can do a Quad Sal?

Also Quad Loop in pairs. When are we going to see one?

[johndockley92]

^^ I believe both Reynolds and Mroz attempt 4L

I also realize that it is possible to do a 4 quad program, but I'm saying it's probably not worth the risk.

[umronnie]

Given that there had only been less than 10 programs with 3 successful quads (Joubert and Reynolds one each - yes, Kevin only managed it once, at 4CC, Javier twice and Tim Goebel 4 or 5 times) I find the 4-quads debate rather academic.

It would probably take immense concentration and stamina, thus making it difficult to perform the rest fo the program, so possibley the elevated BV isn't worth it. However - it will make for a great wow-factor and probably result in elevated PCS and being the first (and only) man to do it is good for your repuatation.

Since the competition is a combintion of SP and LP scores, it would be better to concentrate on a 5-quad-competition - 2 in the short, 3 in the free. If you are solid enough to go for 4 in the free you should be secure enough to go for 2 in the short.

[Vagabond]

The Zayak Rule treats quadruple and triple jumps separately, so it's possible, for example to have two 4T's and two 3T's in the same program or even two 4T's, two 4S's, and two 3T's. The problem with having two 4T's, two 4S's, and 3A's in the same program isn't the Zayak Rule per se but the rule that limits a skater two three jump combinations, only one of which can be a three-jump combinations, and the practicalities of the program. Without working it out on paper, I think the skater would have to have at least one jump combination end with a 4T, and good luck with that!

[all_empty]

Takeshi Honda landed a 3 quad program at 2003 4CCs.

Not sure what jumps are still in Brandon Mroz's repetoire, but he's done 4T and 4Lz. Did they say he was trying a 4Lo at Nationals?

I believe Roman Serov was trying 4Lo, too.

[johndockley92]

The Zayak Rule treats quadruple and triple jumps separately, so it's possible, for example to have two 4T's and two 3T's in the same program or even two 4T's, two 4S's, and two 3T's. The problem with having two 4T's, two 4S's, and 3A's in the same program isn't the Zayak Rule per se but the rule that limits a skater two three jump combinations, only one of which can be a three-jump combinations, and the practicalities of the program. Without working it out on paper, I think the skater would have to have at least one jump combination end with a 4T, and good luck with that!

AFAIK this is false. You can only repeat two jumps that are triple and higher.

[Marco]

Tim Goebel might have benefited from being allowed to do 4 quads. I think you are right, but maybe there are unusual skaters like Goebel heading toward a 4 quad program soon. His 3A seemed less consistent in competition than his quads.

Actually he was never prohibited from doing 4 quads. I think he just preferred to repeat the 3axel in the free because his 4toe was less consistent.

The Zayak Rule treats quadruple and triple jumps separately, so it's possible, for example to have two 4T's and two 3T's in the same program or even two 4T's, two 4S's, and two 3T's. The problem with having two 4T's, two 4S's, and 3A's in the same program isn't the Zayak Rule per se but the rule that limits a skater two three jump combinations, only one of which can be a three-jump combinations, and the practicalities of the program. Without working it out on paper, I think the skater would have to have at least one jump combination end with a 4T, and good luck with that!

No. If you repeat 2 4toes, 2 4sals and 2 3toes, you will be repeating more than 2 types of jumps with 3 revs and over. The last one will not count. And this is precisely because 4toes and 3toes are viewed as different jumps.

And similarly you can't repeat 2 4toes, 2 4sals and 2 3axels. But for argument's sake, it's possible to devise such a layout without having a combination ending in a 4toe:

4toe3toe2loop
4toe
4sal2toe
4sal
3axel3loop
3axel (illegal, should be replaced with 3loop in this case)
3lutz
3flip

[morqet]

No. If you repeat 2 4toes, 2 4sals and 2 3toes, you will be repeating more than 2 types of jumps with 3 revs and over. The last one will not count. And this is precisely because 4toes and 3toes are viewed as different jumps.

And similarly you can't repeat 2 4toes, 2 4sals and 2 3axels. But for argument's sake, it's possible to devise such a layout without having a combination ending in a 4toe:

4toe3toe2loop
4toe
4sal2toe
4sal
3axel3loop
3axel (illegal, should be replaced with 3loop in this case)
3lutz
3flip

But surely that wouldn't work either because then you'd be repeating 4t, 4s and 3lo? Wouldn't you have to replace the 2nd 3a with a 2a? This rule is so confusing!

[briancoogaert]

4toe3toe2loop
4toe
4sal2toe
4sal
3axel3loop
3axel (illegal, should be replaced with 3loop in this case)
3lutz
3flip

But surely that wouldn't work either because then you'd be repeating 4t, 4s and 3lo? Wouldn't you have to replace the 2nd 3a with a 2a? This rule is so confusing!

2Axel, or 3Sal.

So, Zayak rule applies to triple and quad together ? Good to know

[Marco]

Sorry, yes I meant 3sal in the bracket.

[Vagabond]

It turns out that I was mistaken.

ISU Rule 512:

A Double Axel cannot be included more than two (2) times in total in a Single’s Free Program (as a Solo Jump or a part of Combination / Sequence).

Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be repeated and these repetitions must be in either a jump-combination or in a jump sequence. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as two different jumps. A repeated triple or quadruple jump, not included into a jump combination or jump sequence, will be considered as a part of a not successfully executed jump sequence and counted as a jump sequence with only one jump executed. If three (3) jump combinations or jump sequences (in total) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered (but this element will occupy a jumpelement box if there still is any left). No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice. If a third repeated jump is executed in a combination or sequence, the entire combination or sequence will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered (but this element will occupy a jump element box if there still is any left).

http://www5.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page...-0-file,00.pdf

That means that a skater who does two 4T's and two 4S's can't repeat any triple jumps. As far as I can tell, the most likely jump layout would be something like this:

4S+2T
4S
4T+2T
4T
3A
3Z
3F
3R+2T+2T

[skatak]

I believe Roman Serov was trying 4Lo, too.

Indeed.
I heard Yagudin was also working on it, though never saw it from my own eyes (except once a quad attempt of which I missed the entrance, but due to the place on the ice and the curve, it may well have been a 4Lp attempt).