Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 112
  1. #81
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    There's one near you!!! :)
    Posts
    3,952
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I also felt that Midori had stronger spins, stronger choreography, and had a much better program overall.
    I went back and watched the two programs. I really don't think that Midori's spins, while very good, were any better than Tonya's overall. Her choreography and program perhaps seemed more "professional," and it was certainly a fine package overall. But I wouldn't call it mesmerizing. Especially at the end, the power faded away as Midori tried to seem "ladylike." Although the program itself was well done, was it the best vehicle for showing off Midori's power and jumps? I don't think so. Midori could have done much worse, of course, but I'm not sure the program particularly played to her strengths.

    OTOH, I think Tonya's program was definitely her. It may be have been a bit rough around the edges, and perhaps the choreography could have been improved, but the program as a whole was original and riveting. The energy never really let up, and I think it fit Tonya extremely well.

    As skating judges go, however, I could certainly understand why they would "get" Midori's program and not Tonya's.

  2. #82

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Partying with Oda
    Posts
    4,226
    vCash
    1799
    Rep Power
    34903
    Quote Originally Posted by Maofan7 View Post
    17th: David Liu (Chinese Taipei)

    Short Program
    One of my favorite programs from these games. So artistic and, who else does an entire footwork sequence on one foot?
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  3. #83
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I went back and watched the two programs. I really don't think that Midori's spins, while very good, were any better than Tonya's overall. Her choreography and program perhaps seemed more "professional," and it was certainly a fine package overall. But I wouldn't call it mesmerizing. Especially at the end, the power faded away as Midori tried to seem "ladylike." Although the program itself was well done, was it the best vehicle for showing off Midori's power and jumps? I don't think so. Midori could have done much worse, of course, but I'm not sure the program particularly played to her strengths.

    OTOH, I think Tonya's program was definitely her. It may be have been a bit rough around the edges, and perhaps the choreography could have been improved, but the program as a whole was original and riveting. The energy never really let up, and I think it fit Tonya extremely well.

    As skating judges go, however, I could certainly understand why they would "get" Midori's program and not Tonya's.
    I can see where you're coming from. I personally didn't find Tonya's program to be riveting though so perhaps that was my problem.

  4. #84
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Miami, FL, USA
    Posts
    6,937
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    Don't think figures would have made a difference in the 1992 Olympic result. The ladies who were best in figures that were still around were Patricia Neske,Joanne Conway and Željka Čižmešija, but even had Figures been still around and worth 20%, their OP and FS results would have dropped them far back. The wildcard may have been Tonya Harding had she performed even slightly better in the OP + FS.
    True. What I was thinking though is you may have seen a lot of dramatic movement in the standings between the CF, SP and LP which (for me) would've made for more dramatic TV viewing.

  5. #85

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,467
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20970
    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    One of my favorite programs from these games. So artistic and, who else does an entire footwork sequence on one foot?
    David Liu gave the earliest, and IMO the best, example of one-foot step sequences that I'm aware of.

    I have seen one-foot sequences in competitive programs from Surya Bonaly, Dmitri Dmitrenko, Galina Maniachenko, Irina Slutskaya, and Rohene Ward.

    And exhibition programs from Brian Boitano and Alexander Abt.

  6. #86
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    There's one near you!!! :)
    Posts
    3,952
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I can see where you're coming from. I personally didn't find Tonya's program to be riveting though so perhaps that was my problem.
    It's not necessarily a problem--we just probably have different tastes. I happen to like programs that have are rather unconventional and edgy, but that's not everyone's cup of tea. Perhaps you would like her SP from '93 better, or from another year.

  7. #87
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    It's not necessarily a problem--we just probably have different tastes. I happen to like programs that have are rather unconventional and edgy, but that's not everyone's cup of tea. Perhaps you would like her SP from '93 better, or from another year.
    I also like unconventional programs. For example, I love Denkova & Staviski during their super-voidy days. But for whatever reason, that program (and most of Tonya's programs) have failed to capture my attention.

  8. #88
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,248
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I went back and watched the two programs. I really don't think that Midori's spins, while very good, were any better than Tonya's overall. Her choreography and program perhaps seemed more "professional," and it was certainly a fine package overall. But I wouldn't call it mesmerizing. Especially at the end, the power faded away as Midori tried to seem "ladylike." Although the program itself was well done, was it the best vehicle for showing off Midori's power and jumps? I don't think so. Midori could have done much worse, of course, but I'm not sure the program particularly played to her strengths.

    OTOH, I think Tonya's program was definitely her. It may be have been a bit rough around the edges, and perhaps the choreography could have been improved, but the program as a whole was original and riveting. The energy never really let up, and I think it fit Tonya extremely well.

    As skating judges go, however, I could certainly understand why they would "get" Midori's program and not Tonya's.

    I found Midori's programs that year boring. It looked like she was trying to hard to compete with Kristi in artistry in the judges eyes that she almost copied her same style and programs, including the same Spanish themed short program as Kristi's long program. It definitely wasnt her best package.

    I actually really liked Tonya's short program that year, but the judges were probably offended by the music title. Her long program that year I didnt like as much with the bizarre and uncohesive music cuts and choreography, although I liked the first part, which she extended into a more cohesive theme for her long program the 14 months after the Games.

  9. #89
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,248
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    That was unwise to attempt the triple axel in the SP. Did anybody tell her? The only way it would have made sense is if Nancy and Kristi had both skated first (and, as they did, cleanly), and then she skated before Midori. Does anybody remember the actual starting order?
    Tonya actually skated after Nancy, but well before Kristi and Midori. I guess I could a scenario she was worried the judges would place her 4th in the short behind Kristi, Midori, and Nancy, and she wouldnt be in mathematical position to win the gold simply by winning the long program, and maybe that is why she tried the triple axel combo. I really dont think the judges would have placed her below Nancy in the SP though. The judges knew Tonya was one of the favorites for the gold, and they knew Nancy wasnt really a threat for the gold that year, and they would have wanted the big 3 all in the hunt for the gold after the SP if possible. I know that goes against how they scored the LP where Nancy with more mistakes and less triples was still placed over Tonya by almost every judge, but the situation was totally different by then with one 2nd in the SP and in contention for the gold medal, and the other in 6th and almost out of medal contention.

    Of course, here are some things to think about:

    a) If Tonya had skated cleanly in the SP (with the 3A), would she have won the SP? I wouldn't bet on it.
    I wouldnt bet on it either, especialy as she skated early which would have held back her marks regardless. So really my guess is she would have ended up in the exact same place with either a triple axel combo done cleanly (2nd behind Kristi, 3rd if Midori skated well) or a triple lutz combo done cleanly (2nd behind Kristi, 3rd if Midori skated well). So definitely was never worth the risk in the SP, in the LP sure go for it.

    b) If Tonya had nailed the 3A in the LP and the rest of her jumps hadn't been two-footed, would she have won the LP? I rather doubt it. In fact, I wouldn't be totally surprised if she had finished 3rd in the LP.
    Here I disagree with you. If Tonya did her 91 Nationals or 91 Skate America LP, and been top 3 after the short, she would have for sure won the LP and the gold medal. With how Kristi and Midori skated they would have had no choice, and it would have been a scandal had she not won with a clean skate with the triple axel. Furthermore when she does skate cleanly with the triple axel the judges have shown they are willing to give her 5.9s and 5.8s even for artistic impression, if she has clearly outjumped her competitors (which she clearly would have done in this case). It is only when she doesnt hit the jumps that they really hit her hard on artistic scores.

  10. #90
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    There's one near you!!! :)
    Posts
    3,952
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I found Midori's programs that year boring. It looked like she was trying to hard to compete with Kristi in artistry in the judges eyes that she almost copied her same style and programs, including the same Spanish themed short program as Kristi's long program. It definitely wasnt her best package.
    To beat your opponent, you have to focus on what you do well, not try to mimic what they do well. Kristi could easily out-"elegant" Midori, but no way she could out-"power" her.

    which she extended into a more cohesive theme for her long program the 14 months after the Games.
    14 months? I didn't care for her LP at '93 Nationals, but maybe if she'd had a different outfit and had skated it better, I would have.
    Last edited by neptune; 03-14-2013 at 05:03 AM.

  11. #91
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    There's one near you!!! :)
    Posts
    3,952
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I really dont think the judges would have placed her below Nancy in the SP though.
    It would be interesting to see what they would have done there.

    I wouldnt bet on it either, especialy as she skated early which would have held back her marks regardless. So really my guess is she would have ended up in the exact same place with either a triple axel combo done cleanly (2nd behind Kristi, 3rd if Midori skated well) or a triple lutz combo done cleanly
    And if you think about it, that kind of scoring would be crazy.

    Here I disagree with you. If Tonya did her 91 Nationals or 91 Skate America LP, and been top 3 after the short, she would have for sure won the LP and the gold medal. With how Kristi and Midori skated they would have had no choice, and it would have been a scandal had she not won with a clean skate with the triple axel.
    Maybe I wasn't clear enough here. I meant if she went clean in the LP after finishing 6th in the SP. In that case, I really don't think she would've won the LP--at least not with 6 triples (including the axel).

    Furthermore when she does skate cleanly with the triple axel the judges have shown they are willing to give her 5.9s and 5.8s even for artistic impression, if she has clearly outjumped her competitors (which she clearly would have done in this case). It is only when she doesnt hit the jumps that they really hit her hard on artistic scores.
    Yes, I agree that if she had skated cleanly in the SP, she would have been rewarded for a clean LP as well. However, I do think the decision would have been split: Maybe 6 judges Tonya, 2 Kristi, and 1 Midori.
    Last edited by neptune; 03-14-2013 at 05:09 AM.

  12. #92

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    29,620
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    42893
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  13. #93
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Mishkutenok & Dmitriev's 1992 free skate is the most beautiful pairs programme ever. Although I preferred the drama and passion of their 1994 free skate, the breathtaking beauty of the 1992 programme is, in my opinion, unrivalled.

  14. #94

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,850
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    39967
    I agree. Sometimes I think Moskvina's later choreography is a lot of extraneous movement with no real purpose. I even think that Mishkutenok/Dmitriev's 1994 LP suffered a bit from that (like that throwaway move where both of them are hunched over for no real reason). However, their 1992 was choreographically-perfect. To me, it is THE pairs program. However, one tiny (very nitpick observation) thing that sort of took away the lasting effect at the 1992 Olympic performance was at the very end where Natalia missed her initial catch on that last Biellman move. It's no big deal, but now I can't help noticing it. It's more distracting than some of her jump errors.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  15. #95
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,248
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I actually heard Lyndon Johnson from Canada, the 89 world pairs silver medalists, was the choreographer of M&D's 94 program. I even remember Tamara mentioning it in an interview, and Brian Orser mentioned it on CTV's coverage of the Olympic pairs event too. I heard Artur was heavily involved too, and basically the two of them choreographed it together.

  16. #96
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I agree. Sometimes I think Moskvina's later choreography is a lot of extraneous movement with no real purpose. I even think that Mishkutenok/Dmitriev's 1994 LP suffered a bit from that (like that throwaway move where both of them are hunched over for no real reason). However, their 1992 was choreographically-perfect. To me, it is THE pairs program. However, one tiny (very nitpick observation) thing that sort of took away the lasting effect at the 1992 Olympic performance was at the very end where Natalia missed her initial catch on that last Biellman move. It's no big deal, but now I can't help noticing it. It's more distracting than some of her jump errors.
    Oi I never noticed Natalia missing her catch on the Biellman. I thought the 1992 programme was perfection. The choreography, the costumes, M&D's good looks, their performance - simply breathtaking.

    I have to disagree about Moskvina's later choreography though. I thought she did a brilliant job with Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze. Some of their programmes were amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I actually heard Lyndon Johnson from Canada, the 89 world pairs silver medalists, was the choreographer of M&D's 94 program. I even remember Tamara mentioning it in an interview, and Brian Orser mentioned it on CTV's coverage of the Olympic pairs event too. I heard Artur was heavily involved too, and basically the two of them choreographed it together.
    That 1994 programme is a masterpiece.

    I read that it was Artur's idea and he tried to convince Tamara for several weeks that they should skate to Rachmaninov and not Swan Lake. Artur said "Natalia is no swan."

  17. #97
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    59
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I've seen that quote too. However, I doubt it's true. I think he said they wanted some thing unique ...to set them apart. If only because Natalia was a beautiful dying swan in 1990 and 1991 (worlds only, I think).

  18. #98
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Minou View Post
    I've seen that quote too. However, I doubt it's true. I think he said they wanted some thing unique ...to set them apart. If only because Natalia was a beautiful dying swan in 1990 and 1991 (worlds only, I think).
    Both Tamara and Artur said it in interviews as far as I remember. I don't think they ever bit their tongue when it came to Natalia's weight and they never missed an opportunity to say that she was heavy. Well, isn't karma great...

  19. #99
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,448
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    Both Tamara and Artur said it in interviews as far as I remember. I don't think they ever bit their tongue when it came to Natalia's weight and they never missed an opportunity to say that she was heavy. Well, isn't karma great...
    Even Scott Hamilton called Natalia a big girl in the SP in 94. I don't think he'd get away with that today. At least I hope he wouldn't.

  20. #100
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,248
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I read that it was Artur's idea and he tried to convince Tamara for several weeks that they should skate to Rachmaninov and not Swan Lake. Artur said "Natalia is no swan."
    Haha I laugh at that quote. I feel a bit sorry for Natalia as it sounds a bit mean, but by 94 it was also so true.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •