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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Even though Harding didn't even do the second jump of the combination? From what I remember back then, just doing the second jump of the combination (even if it actually wasn't in combination per se due to an error between the jumps) was still given credit for at least fulfilling the requirement.
    If I've ever seen the list of SP deductions as it existed in 1992, it was ~20 years ago, before the changes made ca. 1994.

    Here's the list as it existed in 2000: http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_rules/isu_...deductions.htm

    There's no difference specified between falling on the first jump of the combo and then doing the second jump vs. falling on the first jump and not doing the second jump. In practice judges may have considered the difficulty and quality of the second jump, not to mention its actual existence, in setting their base marks, but leaving it out doesn't seem to have been a mandatory deduction.

    I think that in 1992 the deduction for falling on the first jump, or on a solo jump or spin, was 0.5, lowered to 0.4 ca. 1994.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    ^It sure does.

    Another intriguing factor is Compulsory Figures. I often wonder what the podium would've looked like, who would've competed, and who would've stuck around until '92 if they had kept Compulsory Figures until then, instead of eliminating them in '90.

    It always seemed weird to me that they didn't end Figures at the conclusion of the '92 season. It just seemed like a natural end point. Plus, it would've given a group of skaters strong in Figures a fighting chance to shoot for the '92 Olympics.

    BTW, who were the strong Figures skaters in this era? - I think Jill Trenary, Patricia Neske, Natalia Lebedeva, Joanne Conway, maybe someone like Marina Kiehlmann or Evelin Grossmann?

    Of the 'big 4' - Tonya was better at figures than Kristi, Midori and Nancy, way better than someone like Surya. Tonya may have been quite the skating phenomenon, dominating in Figures (at least over the strong free skaters) and being a tech rival to Midori in the SP and LP (of course, personal life choices come into play, too)

    Had figures still been in place Harding would have had a much better chance at the 92 Olympics. Then again she had a good chance even as it was and showed up not properly trained, and could have won it given the way Kristi and Midori both skated had she skated to her potential even with no figures, but had she not felt like she needed to do the triple axel in the short program for instance (or even the long perhaps) things still could have been different even not showing up fully prepared.

  3. #63
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    Regarding Ito and Harding in the 92 short program I think some of the factors were:

    1. Even if the rule didnt specify a difference between doing a 2nd jump in the combo after a fall or not, the judges much prefered you did one.

    2. Harding was never a judges favorite and had to work for all she got. Ito in her prime years deserved all her success of course, but she generally was well liked by the judges as well.

    3. The judges were probably unimpressed Harding tried the triple axel in the short after crashing and burning on it all week in pratice and so probably gave her no extra credit at all for trying the jump vs Ito, Yamaguchi, and Kerrigan who didnt. In fact they probably were more impressed with Ito's choice to try a safer jump, even though it didnt work out for her. One of the Harding books that came out around the time said it best, "if a skater isnt landing the jump, has never landed the jump, but tries it anyway and falls, the judges are more likely to roll their eyes and mark a fall with a harsher hand." Tonya of course had landed the triple axel but she hadnt been that week and the judges were probably unimpressed to see her try it when unneccessary in the short and fall on it.

    4. Harding was skating to music called sex something.

    5. Harding had been skating poorly in practice the whole time since she arrived. There was alot of talk of why she showed up so late. Some judges probably made her an afterthought in their minds by the time the event began, even though she came in as one of the favorites. When she fell it only reinforced it.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Regarding Ito and Harding in the 92 short program I think some of the factors were:

    1. Even if the rule didnt specify a difference between doing a 2nd jump in the combo after a fall or not, the judges much prefered you did one.

    2. Harding was never a judges favorite and had to work for all she got. Ito in her prime years deserved all her success of course, but she generally was well liked by the judges as well.

    3. The judges were probably unimpressed Harding tried the triple axel in the short after crashing and burning on it all week in pratice and so probably gave her no extra credit at all for trying the jump vs Ito, Yamaguchi, and Kerrigan who didnt. In fact they probably were more impressed with Ito's choice to try a safer jump, even though it didnt work out for her. One of the Harding books that came out around the time said it best, "if a skater isnt landing the jump, has never landed the jump, but tries it anyway and falls, the judges are more likely to roll their eyes and mark a fall with a harsher hand." Tonya of course had landed the triple axel but she hadnt been that week and the judges were probably unimpressed to see her try it when unneccessary in the short and fall on it.

    4. Harding was skating to music called sex something.

    5. Harding had been skating poorly in practice the whole time since she arrived. There was alot of talk of why she showed up so late. Some judges probably made her an afterthought in their minds by the time the event began, even though she came in as one of the favorites. When she fell it only reinforced it.
    The name of Harding's SP music was 'People are still having Sex'. Pretty voidy stuff generally, but especially voidy for an American skater!

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    The name of Harding's SP music was 'People are still having Sex'. Pretty voidy stuff generally, but especially voidy for an American skater!
    . . . and still much better sounding than Disco Classical circa 1979 or circa 2005

  6. #66
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    I often wonder what the podium would've looked like, who would've competed, and who would've stuck around until '92 if they had kept Compulsory Figures until then, instead of eliminating them in '90.
    I don't think it made much difference to the podium. Ito won her World title while figures were still around. Kristi & Ito were pretty even in Compulsory Figures (9th & 10th in 1990). I doubt figures would have made any difference in the outcome between those two.

    The only real major players who retired before 92 were Leisner and Trenary. Claudia Liesner had been competing at Worlds since 1981 and IMO she stuck around one extra year after Calgary to improve her final results. I think it was obvious that neither of them had the jumps to compete with Yamaguchi and Ito. Neither did a 3 Lutz nor a reliable 3 Flip. The years between 88 and 92 were a real watershed for Ladies skating. I think both these skaters had to recognize they were from the old generation and simply could not compete with the new. (Officially, though, I think Trenary's retirement was attributed to an injury.)

    If you look at the jump content between the 88 and 92 podiums, the difference is striking. In 88, Thomas' 3T-3T was considered a big deal. Witt won with her hardest triple being a 3Loop (she doubled a planned 3F). By the time the 92 Olympics came around, two ladies had landed triple Axels at Worlds and Kristi was reliably landing 3Lz-3T. Basically, the jump content for the top ladies has hovered around that same level for 20+ years. The difference is then we were talking about the best 2 skaters, today there more skaters with jumps at that level.
    Last edited by Susan M; 03-12-2013 at 07:27 PM.

  7. #67
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    Don't think figures would have made a difference in the 1992 Olympic result. The ladies who were best in figures that were still around were Patricia Neske,Joanne Conway and Željka Čižmešija, but even had Figures been still around and worth 20%, their OP and FS results would have dropped them far back. The wildcard may have been Tonya Harding had she performed even slightly better in the OP + FS.

  8. #68

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    Perhaps having figures in Albertville could have altered the outcome, but I think Seerek's analysis is correct and figures would have made no difference. It could have given Ito some edge over Yamaguchi, but it seems unlikely given Ito's nerve issues. The figures might have helped Tonya win bronze over Nancy, but this also seems unlikely because the judges could play with the SP and FS ordinals to get results they wanted. But how were Nancy's figures? I see that Yamaguchi beat her in figures at the 1988 Nationals. And what about Surya's?

    I assume that Kristi's low to bad placements in figures in 89 and 90 were partly related to her knowing that figures would be gone by 92. My guess is that from 1988-1990 Kristi concentrated on her jump arsenal knowing that 91 would be her breakout year in singles. Around the 1990 Goodwill Games, she said that she was ahead of where she planned to be internationally at that time. From this I gather her plan was to hold figures steady but not sweat about improving them. If figures had been part of the game for 92, I believe she would have found ways to improve them from 1988 onward. She clearly would have needed to because Ito had a disastrous figures in the 1990 Worlds (finishing 10th), and still Yamaguchi placed only one ordinal ahead of her (9th).
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 03-13-2013 at 12:39 AM.

  9. #69

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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Chen was pretty much a newbie then. She was going to have squeeky clean in the short to be in the final group.
    Of course. I was just discussing what the skating merited, not what I actually expected the judges to allow.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Of course. I was just discussing what the skating merited, not what I actually expected the judges to allow.
    Of course! This was the era of : but that was okay because the media explained it away as the skater was unartistic.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    It always seemed weird to me that they didn't end Figures at the conclusion of the '92 season. It just seemed like a natural end point. Plus, it would've given a group of skaters strong in Figures a fighting chance to shoot for the '92 Olympics.
    I agree.

    Of the 'big 4' - Tonya was better at figures than Kristi, Midori and Nancy, way better than someone like Surya. Tonya may have been quite the skating phenomenon, dominating in Figures (at least over the strong free skaters) and being a tech rival to Midori in the SP and LP (of course, personal life choices come into play, too)
    It's a shame that Tonya wasn't awarded the silver medal at '89 Nationals, and thus stayed home for Worlds. It's also a shame that she was really sick at '90 Nationals--she probably should have withdrawn, but I guess she knew she had no chance then. She could easily have won a medal at '90 Worlds (and maybe even '89 Worlds), if not the whole thing. And she might well have won '91 Worlds if figures had still been in place. Yes, I think they should have kept figures until the conclusion of the cycle. Tonya was definitely unlucky in that regard. Then again, the judging of figures was often suspect, so who knows what they would have done with Tonya in that segment at the Olympics.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I think that in 1992 the deduction for falling on the first jump, or on a solo jump or spin, was 0.5, lowered to 0.4 ca. 1994.
    Thanks for the helpful info.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    It's a shame that Tonya wasn't awarded the silver medal at '89 Nationals, and thus stayed home for Worlds ... then again, the judging of figures was often suspect, so who knows what they would have done with Tonya in that segment at the Olympics.


    Horrible! To have so much talent that you could actually demonstrate, but, after performing it, the authorities say otherwise because you happen to not be their type of person.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 03-13-2013 at 04:13 AM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27
    Had figures still been in place Harding would have had a much better chance at the 92 Olympics. Then again she had a good chance even as it was and showed up not properly trained, and could have won it given the way Kristi and Midori both skated had she skated to her potential even with no figures, but had she not felt like she needed to do the triple axel in the short program for instance (or even the long perhaps) things still could have been different even not showing up fully prepared.
    That was unwise to attempt the triple axel in the SP. Did anybody tell her? The only way it would have made sense is if Nancy and Kristi had both skated first (and, as they did, cleanly), and then she skated before Midori. Does anybody remember the actual starting order?

    Of course, here are some things to think about:

    a) If Tonya had skated cleanly in the SP (with the 3A), would she have won the SP? I wouldn't bet on it.

    b) If Tonya had nailed the 3A in the LP and the rest of her jumps hadn't been two-footed, would she have won the LP? I rather doubt it. In fact, I wouldn't be totally surprised if she had finished 3rd in the LP.

    1. Even if the rule didnt specify a difference between doing a 2nd jump in the combo after a fall or not, the judges much prefered you did one.
    Probably. And of course, it's all about what they like.

    2. Harding was never a judges favorite and had to work for all she got. Ito in her prime years deserved all her success of course, but she generally was well liked by the judges as well.
    True.

    "if a skater isnt landing the jump, has never landed the jump, but tries it anyway and falls, the judges are more likely to roll their eyes and mark a fall with a harsher hand." Tonya of course had landed the triple axel but she hadnt been that week and the judges were probably unimpressed to see her try it when unneccessary in the short and fall on it.
    Definitely. Maybe her coach told her not to but she just didn't listen.

    Harding was skating to music called sex something.
    Actually, only the title of the music was risqué--the music itself (without the lyrics) was not. Still, though, Tonya should have known better.

    5. Harding had been skating poorly in practice the whole time since she arrived. There was alot of talk of why she showed up so late. Some judges probably made her an afterthought in their minds by the time the event began, even though she came in as one of the favorites. When she fell it only reinforced it.
    That's also true. IOW, the judges weren't marking strictly what they witnessed on the ice.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maofan7 View Post


    The question from the four year old was precious. I love that Kristi is a good saleswoman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    Don't think figures would have made a difference in the 1992 Olympic result....The wildcard may have been Tonya Harding had she performed even slightly better in the OP + FS.
    Well, even without the figures, she finished 4th. Figures could only have helped her. And maybe if she had a decent cushion after the figures, she wouldn't have bothered with the 3A in the SP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    If figures had been part of the game for 92, I believe she would have found ways to improve them from 1988 onward.
    Well, she most certainly would have tried. How much she would have succeeded, who knows.

    She clearly would have needed to because Ito had a disastrous figures in the 1990 Worlds (finishing 10th), and still Yamaguchi placed only one ordinal ahead of her (9th).
    Of course, if Kristi had spent time on figures post-1990, she wouldn't have been able to devote as much practice to the jumping. Obviously, that's true for the other skaters as well.

    I guess what it all boils down to is: Winning a competition is often relative. Under different rules/circumstances, the outcome might have been totally different. So, it's always important to look at the entire career of an athlete instead of just looking at one result, or just counting their major titles. Furthermore, as Carol Heiss once said, a gold medal won't make you happy for the rest of your life. And as Barbara Underhill pointed out to Kurt Browning, losing a competition, no matter how painful, doesn't compare with losing a child. So, when you keep all these things in mind, I guess who won what and who placed where--while it's all fun to talk about--doesn't really mean that much in the overall scheme of life.
    Last edited by neptune; 03-13-2013 at 04:31 AM.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Horrible! To have so much talent that you could actually demonstrate, but, after performing it, the authorities say otherwise because you happen to not be their type of person.
    Yep. If you're unconventional, and especially if you're a woman, competitive skating might not be the best sport for you.

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    This is especially true now that all the programs are encouraged to look alike.

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