Bizarrely titled Reuters article on Davis & White

[Zemgirl]

The first paragraph is extremely stupid, with reference to Plushenko. Did this writer even watch Plushenko's performance at the 2010 Olympics? It was anything but "wobbly". The only mistake he had was a turnout on the landing of a 3A. He did not throw tantrums and certainly not to get his fans on his side. I was on his side, based on what he did on the ice. I am shocked that Davis made a reference to Plushenko, however. That was stupid. Even though D&W are my favorites, that comment makes them go down in my mind.

However, the stupidest thing about the article is its title.

ETA: (Although no relevance to D&W) the only skaters that have thrown a hissy fit and tantrums are 1) Surya Bonaly, and 2) S&P. In the latter case they were successful to getting the results of the competition changed. Plushenko did nothing of the sort.

It is implied that the writer was the one who brought this up from the first three sentences of the article.

Meryl Davis is smart enough to avoid answering questions she doesn't like. That response was far from classy, sort of like the famed . I think that D/W have a reputation for being classy all the time, but that's not always the case.

Re S/P, I think most of the heavy lifting was done by the NA media. I can understand Jamie's disappointment and tears on the podium, so I'm not going to fault her for that, and David had a funny line about if he hadn't wanted something like that to ever happen he could have competed in skiing instead. That said, playing along with the media and especially the implication that Anton may have collided with Jamie in the warmup on purpose was inappropriate.

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

Having good lines is not a matter of snobbery. It's a matter of it's something that's been important in dance (and valued in ice dance as well) for many years and considered a fundamental good thing. Same with posture, extension, and unison. It's not a matter of style. It's a matter of having good fundamentals. Being sloppy is begin sloppy. It's not a style choice. It's something that should be dinged.

Also, although they are used interchangably, chemistry and connection are not quite the same thing. Connection is more about how the two dancers are able to move, interact, react, and make adjustments to each other in real-time in addition to doing moves that are interdependent upon one another, ie. if one person goes down, they both do. IMO, in this sense, V/M have it all over D/W.

Great post gerbil.

So if applying these standards which have been in place since icedance became a sport is snobbery then by that reckoning dinging singles skaters for improper jumps (flutzing) and non centered spins, poor edgework, poor spirals, empty space between jumps as opposed to more difficult connecting moves etc. etc. is also snobbery. I don't even know how to argue against that type of philosophy.

I'm also not sure why V&M and D&W have to be a package deal. I realize some love both teams but some prefer one or the other (style differences). V&M and D&W are both NA teams but skate for different countries. I don't see people lecturing about appreciating just being able to enjoy some great skating when teams such as P&B and B&S were criticized when people felt the judges overmarked them or "gave" them titles some fans felt they don't deserve. Don't get me wrong, I don't neccesarily want the two teams to dislike each other but the insistence that V&M and D&W must love each other and practically have sleep overs post competition is unrealistic. Especially after some of the comments made in the last season or so.

Going back to style differences. After the season is over and the competitions are in the past then yes, I can go back and just watch the programs and enjoy them for what they are when it comes to choreography or just level of performance. But this is competition and one can appreciate different styles yet be able to apply the same set of judging standards to those styles. It's not what a team chooses to skate to but how well they skate it.

And there is nothing wrong with any of the teams (not just V&M or D&W) wanting to win but I also expect skaters to have some sort of self awareness regarding their skills and/or what they actually put out there on the ice. Even with Scott sometimes coming across as cocky, both he and Tessa have admitted when they haven't skated well or at least not as well as they wanted to. V&M seem like perfectionists and they want to put out a 100% performance at all times. When they were critical of their FD at Worlds last season it's unfortunate that the media took that as an opening to make it seem as if they were far worse than they were and that Tessa and Scott somehow were admitting they were gifted.

With D&W, this isn't the first time they've come across to me as if they have bought into the hype over themselves. They may not blatantly slam other teams but at times can be passive/agressive. Last seasons 4CC's stood out to me. Even after a bad performance they and many supporters screamed wuzrobbed when V&M won the title. I felt bad for Charlie because his asthma contributed to how D&W skated, but unfortunately for them the judges aren't supposed to give sympathy points.

D&W have made a few comments about them vs their competition before but just like on the ice, sublety also seems to be lost on people off ice as well. Again, they haven't been as openly blunt as we saw back in the days when B&K and G&P went at each other but in a round about way, D&W have more than once suggested that they should have won even when they didn't. I recall the post FD press conference at Worlds last year when they were asked about the marks and their silver. To paraphrase, they wanted to have a chat with the judges to find out what they were thinking but didn't blame V&M. Basically they thought they should have won but didn't blame V&M for being given a title they didn't deserve.

It's hard to keep debating these two teams because any discussion of basic skating skills and everything that comes under that heading is brushed off by some as V&M ubers just trying to spin everything in their favor because we want them to win all the time.

[TheIronLady]

I kinda thought his rudely standing on the top of the podium when he came out for the medal ceremony was a tad tantrumish...

It is in bad form to make jokes with athletes you have publicly talked down or criticized (or whom you talk down after the competition). In one sense it was worse than what Surya did at 1994 Worlds, at least for the other athletes (i.e. Evan). In Surya's tantrum you could feel sorry for her, as I believe Yuka Sato told Manleywoman she did. It's harder to respond to something dressed as a joke. It's like you have an opponent whom you have defeated who now wants you to laugh at something a little bit insulting or disrespectful. This is kind of unfair.

[figuristka]

Having good lines is not a matter of snobbery. It's a matter of it's something that's been important in dance (and valued in ice dance as well) for many years and considered a fundamental good thing. Same with posture, extension, and unison. It's not a matter of style. It's a matter of having good fundamentals. Being sloppy is begin sloppy. It's not a style choice. It's something that should be dinged.

Also, although they are used interchangably, chemistry and connection are not quite the same thing. Connection is more about how the two dancers are able to move, interact, react, and make adjustments to each other in real-time in addition to doing moves that are interdependent upon one another, ie. if one person goes down, they both do. IMO, in this sense, V/M have it all over D/W.

Well said.

[ciocio]

Wouldn't it be vastly more entertaining if they did something like that old Yags & Plush rivalry fluff, with them staring pensively at the snow from the windows of abandoned buildings, while proclaiming that they kind of hate each other

No, because they have to keep it classy and pretend they like each other and they are best friends, etc. I bet they actually dislike each other more than Plushenko and Yagudin ever did, you just have to "read between the lines".
"We won't complain like Plushenko did" doesn't mean, "we won't think we were real winners". The only difference is that D/W know N/A media better than Plushenko and they are aware of how important is to pretend that you respect the rivals.

[ciocio]

Vancouver is irrelevant because the real match up was in SLC and King Yagudin came out on top!

Wheeee! SLC rehash coupled with Plushenko vs Yagudin Much more interesting than zzzzz Vancouver.

at the article! I wish the writer had bothered to get some quotes from Scott. It would have taken everything to the next level. "We train with each other but...we kind of hate each other." Oh well, maybe next time.

Actually is not irrelevant because for Plushenko was 1000000 times harder to came back after years of retirements and place second. We can't call a competition irrelevant for someone's career just because our favorite skaters did not compete or medal.

[Zemgirl]

Haha. I am a Yags uber, but imo, Mishin is the star of that clip

You have a point. Maybe Marina could instead discuss who might be her future daughter in law

[misskarne]

But I bet D&W didn't put a platinum medal on their own website.

Oh lord, not this lie again.

Plushenko had NOTHING to do with the platinum medal on his website. Neither he nor Yana had ANYTHING to do with it. It was a fan who helps run his website that put it up. He did not know anything about it until he questioned by the press.

[TheIronLady]

No, because they have to keep it classy and pretend they like each other and they are best friends, etc. I bet they actually dislike each other more than Plushenko and Yagudin ever did, you just have to "read between the lines".
"We won't complain like Plushenko did" doesn't mean, "we won't think we were real winners". The only difference is that D/W know N/A media better than Plushenko and they are aware of how important is to pretend that you respect the rivals.

It is better to make an effort to respect your rivals at some point in the day/week/year because the sport needs norms of behavior for people to get along. Otherwise you get situations like they have in Russia where grown women and men haven't spoken to each other in years over some ancient affront or insult. This can make for poor working relationships. Anyway you probably agree.

[numbers123]

In reality the view of sportsmanship (bad or good) is based upon some action or words as the conclusion of a group of fans, who have a vested interest in seeing their skater{s} in a good light. We review every action, every word to determine if we can find something that puts our favorite in a good light and their rivals in a bad light. Somehow proving to the rivals' fan that the actions shows unsportsmanlike behavior. Short of anyone grabbing a medal off someone's neck or some action that causes legal assault charges to be filed, I don't think that we (fans) have the knowledge or insight into skaters thoughts to make any decisions about their actions.

Remember the incident of Sasha supposedly deliberate action to run over Michelle, or the Evengi tears vs. the humorous (to some) actions of Alexi looking at his watch seemingly to indicate that the Russian National anthem was too long, or probably a billion other examples not previously mentioned above. Each could have been sportsmanship actions or could be disappointment in themselves or could be a "I know I did my best, what would it feel like to be on the top of the podium" or "our fans believe that we did win"

We do not know - so we post things, and they are verify/substantiation by others of like minds - thus making it true, because someone else agrees with me - I read it on the Internet so I must be right. But the real reaction/action is not KNOWN to us, the reason is NOT known to us, we surmise what we want. We have to admit for us to be on a figure skating board - we are more than the occasional fan. The occasional fan is relying upon experts to tell them some truth.Some of us believe it too, sort of like the it must be true I read it on the internet.

TIL - is it only Russia where people don't talk to each because of preceived insult? Gosh I didn't know I lived in Russia, as I am guilty of this - not speaking to someone because of perceived actions of one person to me.

[ciocio]

It was a fan who helps run his website that put it up.

You mean he/she is STILL running the website?

[Zemgirl]

You mean he/she is STILL running the website?

Why wouldn't she? Should every mistake and bad call be a firing offense? Even assuming that running his website is a paid position; it may be done by a fan volunteering her time.

I've seen worse things on Ice Network, which is an official affiliate of the USFSA - and they don't seem to have fired anyone.

[TheIronLady]

TIL - is it only Russia where people don't talk to each because of preceived insult? Gosh I didn't know I lived in Russia, as I am guilty of this - not speaking to someone because of perceived actions of one person to me.

Of course it is not only Russia. Russia is just an example where many of the best coaches/athletes have had public feuds over years.

[Cherub721]

You mean he/she is STILL running the website?

I have no idea if that fan is still winning the website, but, why not? I'm sure that the platinum thing was meant in good faith, as if to say you may not have won the gold, but you're more precious than gold to us fans. Of course it could also be construed as saying Plushenko was better than Lysacek and that he doesn't accept his silver and that's why it had to be removed, but IMO giving the person a talking to and removing the offending post is quite enough, they don't have to fire him/her for trying to do something nice. Kwan's fans made her a gold medal which they presented to her when she did not win in SLC (probably more of a "you're a gold medalist to us" thing than a "wuzrobbed" considering that she fell, but it's the same sentiment).

Now, if things like that continue to pop up on Plushenko's website and he keeps using the excuse that it's run by a fan, THEN I would say that because he didn't fire the fan, I am assuming that he is in agreement with what they post. To my knowledge that was the only time something like that happened.

To me, Meryl and Charlie have continued to improve and to challenge themselves year after year, and the constant critiques about line and connection are IMO simple snobbery and excuses for those who favor V/M to justify that V/M are better because... when in actual fact nothing much separates these two teams in terms of talent and who is going to win on a given day.
And now, as I've said, I love W/P, G/P, M/I, and the Shibs, and I adore Meryl and Charlie as they have grown on me even as they have grown as skaters over the years. It's who Meryl and Charlie are as people as much as skaters that wins my heart every time and comes through in their performances. The carping about line is just that, endless carping and haranguing. Your equating D/W's speed to sloppiness, doesn't detract one bit from their excellence nor from their hard-won achievements in sport and in life. Die Fledermaus FD, Giselle SD, and Hunchback of Notre Dame FD are the epitome of graceful precision, artistry and ice dance of the highest caliber.

I have no problem with you liking D&W more, but there is a difference between the qualities that make you like a team and qualities that achieve or should achieve high scores (though of course there is a lot of overlap!). The argument here seems to be that D&W have a lot of qualities that endear them to you, and since the scores have been quite close the last few years, people should just accept that they are as good as V&M, and if they harp on technical things it is simply snobbery. That assumes the judges' marks are basically correct or in the ballpark, though, and considering all the discussion on this thread about judging controversies, it's safe to say that not everybody will agree.

In terms of a discussion like D&W's silver at Worlds, it would probably be more helpful to look at the protocols, see that they lost a level compared to V&M, and then explain where D&W should have made that up on the GOE or PCS to get them to first place.

[Vash01]

Oh lord, not this lie again.

Plushenko had NOTHING to do with the platinum medal on his website. Neither he nor Yana had ANYTHING to do with it. It was a fan who helps run his website that put it up. He did not know anything about it until he questioned by the press.

Don't you know that on this board some people love to blame Plushenko for everything that he does or does not, whether he has control over it or not? He has even been criticized for having a certain kind of nose.

[overedge]

Excuse me, but it it not a lie that there was a platinum medal on his website.

[caseyedwards]

It's a lie to say you know plushenko put platinum of Vancouver on the website personally.

[overedge]

If Plushenko doesn't care enough about his public image to monitor and/or approve what's on his website, that's not my problem.
And IIRC the platinum medal was only taken down once questions were raised about it.

[Zemgirl]

If Plushenko doesn't care enough about his public image to monitor and/or approve what's on his website, that's not my problem.

I believe he was kind of busy with the Olympics at the time. And maybe he trusts/trusted whoever runs it for him and doesn't micromanage. Who knows? But to judge him on that, based on the information available, strikes me as rather unfair. If Lysacek has avoided commenting about it, I really don't see why Meryl Davis should do so three years later.

[ciocio]

IMO is not offensive to put a platinum medal on the website because such a medal does not exist, gold would have been much more offensive.
But the website admin and Plushenko should have been more careful, because it was obvious that part of the media were desperate to attack them, as they also did before Olympics.
If you want my opinion, I'm reading Plushenko's official web quite a lot and I strongly believe it was his wife's idea and no fan was involved. But it's only a personal opinion, of course.