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  1. #41
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    Your version of reality would be entertaining, if it weren't based on such skimpy evidence and so many broad assumptions.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    S&P were pretty well behaved, but the American press and all the Canadian skating establishment colluded to turn it into a "was robbed" story. Did you see Tracy Wilson running out to congratulate Jamie Sale? As Jamie stood there with her sweaty arm pits, Tracy exclaimed almost defiantly, "You did it!" The camera/audio cuts away so we don't see more of this Canadian-to-Canadian talk, but if you have ever heard or read Canadians appraising their own, you would know that all of the Canadian skaters and officials were not just heartbroken but outraged by the result. The Canadian coaches and officials had had enough of losing again and again and again (and yet again) throughout the years. With the American media in their pockets (the scandal was a ratings boon), they could complain to their hearts' content. Sale and Pelletier were remarkably poised and realistic about it all, and I think it did ultimately help them to get a fair hearing from the ISU/IOC. Had they behaved like many of the clamoring old Canadians, there might have been some animosity against them for complaining, particularly in Russia. As it turns out, keeping it classy is a winning strategy even when you lose.
    S&P were hardly classy. Jamie sobbing on the podium was the equivalent of a tantrum. Later after the circus began in the media, they added fuel to the fire, saying they want a quick resolution instead of letting the ISU do a full investigation. What was done was unfair to B&S. Had S&P behaved in a classy manner like M&D did at the 1994 Olympics after losing the gold to G&G, they would have earned my respect, regardless of what the media did.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badams View Post
    I kinda thought his rudely standing on the top of the podium when he came out for the medal ceremony was a tad tantrumish...
    "A tad tantrumish"? It was a poor joke but definitely not a tantrum.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Your version of reality would be entertaining, if it weren't based on such skimpy evidence and so many broad assumptions.
    I am not sure what you are alluding to- which post are you responding to?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    S&P were pretty well behaved, but the American press and all the Canadian skating establishment colluded to turn it into a "was robbed" story. Did you see Tracy Wilson running out to congratulate Jamie Sale? As Jamie stood there with her sweaty arm pits, Tracy exclaimed almost defiantly, "You did it!" The camera/audio cuts away so we don't see more of this Canadian-to-Canadian talk, but if you have ever heard or read Canadians appraising their own, you would know that all of the Canadian skaters and officials were not just heartbroken but outraged by the result. The Canadian coaches and officials had had enough of losing again and again and again (and yet again) throughout the years. With the American media in their pockets (the scandal was a ratings boon), they could complain to their hearts' content. Sale and Pelletier were remarkably poised and realistic about it all, and I think it did ultimately help them to get a fair hearing from the ISU/IOC. Had they behaved like many of the clamoring old Canadians, there might have been some animosity against them for complaining, particularly in Russia. As it turns out, keeping it classy is a winning strategy even when you lose.
    Did the entire nation of Canada run over your puppy when you were a kid? Because your animosity to the nation is bizarre.

  6. #46
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    Thanks for pointing out bonmil and TheIronLady that S/P did not throw a tantrum. Sure S/P weren't happy about the scoring in the lp at 2002 Olympics. The fact they were not happy with the marks was obvious in the kiss 'n cry, but they did not throw a tantrum or a hissy fit, nor did they try to get the results changed. In fact, in real time in the kiss 'n cry, they shrugged their shoulders and accepted the results because skaters are trained to accept whatever the judges decide, like it or not. Seemingly, S/P felt in their hearts that they had skated perfectly and lived their Olympic moment, and if the gold icing on the cake was not theirs, it wasn't gonna take away what they'd accomplished on the ice.

    Little did S/P or the audience know during the first medal ceremony that it wasn't over by a long shot. Throughout the resulting brouhaha, S/P carried themselves with as much grace and good humor as possible, and in press interviews they always mentioned B/S with admiration and seemingly genuine sportsmanship. I think S/P were willing to accept whatever ultimately happened because nothing was gonna change the perfect moment they'd already experienced on the ice. I doubt Skate Canada and the ISU gave S/P a choice when they were told they were going to be given gold along with B/S in a second ceremony and that they'd have to return their silver medals.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 03-11-2013 at 02:03 AM.

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    If shedding tears on the podium due to disappointment is throwing tantrums.... wow Figure Skating sure is a bitchy sport!

    This article is stupid, but D/W's whole "we should have won last year and people are telling us we were the true winners" are not doing them any favours to maintain their sportsmanlike image.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    If shedding tears on the podium due to disappointment is throwing tantrums.... wow Figure Skating sure is a bitchy sport!

    This article is stupid, but D/W's whole "we should have won last year and people are telling us we were the true winners" are not doing them any favours to maintain their sportsmanlike image.
    "In our minds we were champions because of the way we skated," said White, who stands out thanks to his shaggy mop of blond curls.

    "You really feel you put your heart out there and you really want people to love your performance so it's hard when you're second best. But you can use that to your advantage, turn it around and come back the next year and that's what we're looking to do.

    His 26-year-old partner added: "A great number of people came up to us and complimented us on our skate at the worlds and told us they thought that we deserved to win.


    They never said "we should have won last year and people are telling us we were the true winners". D/W and others have every right to believe that they deserved to win. "Deserved" is not the same as declaring that they were true winners.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    If shedding tears on the podium due to disappointment is throwing tantrums.... wow Figure Skating sure is a bitchy sport!

    This article is stupid, but D/W's whole "we should have won last year and people are telling us we were the true winners" are not doing them any favours to maintain their sportsmanlike image.
    ^^ ITA with your first sentence! And it is, a lot of the time.

    Re D/W, I think their attitude that they deserved to win last year is in no way a contradiction to being sportsmanlike. Having the attitude that they should win in fact is what all top athletes should have, or else they ain't ever gonna. The fact D/W shared that others came up to them and told them how they felt is just being honest. Why would they lie about that? In fact, D/W are responding to the questions and do not know how the journalist is going to write up the article.

    Don't V/M feel they should win all the time too? Again, the mark of top skaters, athletes and champions who don't like to lose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    S&P were hardly classy. Jamie sobbing on the podium was the equivalent of a tantrum. Later after the circus began in the media, they added fuel to the fire, saying they want a quick resolution instead of letting the ISU do a full investigation. What was done was unfair to B&S. Had S&P behaved in a classy manner like M&D did at the 1994 Olympics after losing the gold to G&G, they would have earned my respect, regardless of what the media did.

    I don't recall Jamie "sobbing" on the podium Vash01. Do you have clips? I do recall that she had tears in her eyes and she was emotional. But how do you know whether or not her tears weren't all about recalling the perfect moment she'd shared with David on the ice in their lp? Or maybe, for all we know, Jamie was shedding a tear as she silently sang the Canadian National anthem while watching the Canadian flag rising.

    And please note that in 1994, M/D and G/G were representing the same country and that G/G were favored as returning former Olympic champions. Once again, skaters have absolutely no choice and no say in the results, except for what they do on the ice. In the sport of figure skating the ISU is King, the federations are behind-the-scenes courtiers, and the skaters are the peasants, aside perhaps from a top champion or two or three who even then are just at the level of favored minions and have no clout re King's and courtiers' ultimatums.

    Also, btw, while it's true that Surya Bonaly was very upset and demonstrated her unhappiness by pulling off her silver medal and having to be coaxed to stand on the podium and not next to it, many speculate that it was Surya's mother who fueled her fit of pique (so there may have been complex reasons why Surya was crying). It is rarely pointed out how gracious Surya was after the results of Worlds 1993, when Surya clearly had better technical content and should have won over newcomer, Oksana Baiul. While Yuka Sato had never beaten Surya previously, at 1994 Worlds Yuka was the better skater.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 03-11-2013 at 02:49 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Don't V/M feel they should win all the time too? Again, the mark of top skaters, athletes and champions who don't like to lose.
    I think you are referring to GPF11 and technically they did win. I don't recall they were vocal about it at Worlds'11, GPF'12, and 4CC'13 though.

    Besides, I like it and actually appreciate top skaters go out and be confident with their performance if and when they lay it down. Except the difference here IMO is V/M and Plushy gets flak when they say it. FWIW, I though Evan deserved the Gold because Plushy's jumps were sloppy and were rightly given lower GOEs than Evan. And of course, I still refuse to believe V/M's PCS should be scored lower than D/W across the board. Also if you recall, D/W lost World'12 FD also due to lower base value because they have one lower level than V/M. I'm not a partial observer when it comes to V/M and D/W, but as some of those who are, D/W were definitely crowd pleasing at Nice 12 but V/M still had the better overall package to win.

  11. #51
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    ^^ Hey ya! There will always be differences of opinion and preferences where D/W and V/M are concerned, just like apples and oranges, wine and cheese, or pie and cake, heh, heh.

    Ain't it too bad peeps can't just enjoy these amazing ice dancers and their rivalry, before it's all over? Why get so bitter and identified? I prefer D/W's engaging style and I don't care a whit about all the snobbery about lines and connection (D/W got plenty of line, connection, speed, technique, charisma, artistry, etc., and quite simply their style is completely different than V/M's). OTOH, V/M never have done a lot for me re drawing me in regardless of their line, connection, artistry, gorgeous symmetry and matching skin tones, but I definitely admire and appreciate V/M's talent. The rivalry stuff and varying perceptions on the fans' side can be scarily vicious or mildly amusing.

    Meryl and Charlie are my favorites, but I also love, love, love Weaver/ Poje, Gilles/ Poirier, and Mitchell/ Islam. I have a thing for the Shibs and I hope they get over the difficult growing pains they're going through right now. I enjoy watching a lot of other ice dance teams too. Right now, the men are my favorite discipline to watch above all, then pairs and ice dance on a par, and a few of the ladies, none of whom are of the bendy, circusy baby ballerina variety. Yep, I try not to identify ...

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    I think you are referring to GPF11 and technically they did win. I don't recall they were vocal about it at Worlds'11, GPF'12, and 4CC'13 though.
    What do you mean, technically they did win?

  13. #53
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    Having good lines is not a matter of snobbery. It's a matter of it's something that's been important in dance (and valued in ice dance as well) for many years and considered a fundamental good thing. Same with posture, extension, and unison. It's not a matter of style. It's a matter of having good fundamentals. Being sloppy is begin sloppy. It's not a style choice. It's something that should be dinged.

    Also, although they are used interchangably, chemistry and connection are not quite the same thing. Connection is more about how the two dancers are able to move, interact, react, and make adjustments to each other in real-time in addition to doing moves that are interdependent upon one another, ie. if one person goes down, they both do. IMO, in this sense, V/M have it all over D/W.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    What do you mean, technically they did win?
    Technically, V/M won the FD once the correction was made for the mis-scored lift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    Technically, V/M won the FD once the correction was made for the mis-scored lift.
    Yeah oops that's what I meant. Technically they did win the FD but not the whole competition. No way Scott would think they deserved to win the whole competition after he butt wiped in the SD.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    Yeah oops that's what I meant. Technically they did win the FD but not the whole competition. No way Scott would think they deserved to win the whole competition after he butt wiped in the SD.
    Okay, thanks. I was confused for a moment.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    Having good lines is not a matter of snobbery. It's a matter of it's something that's been important in dance (and valued in ice dance as well) for many years and considered a fundamental good thing. Same with posture, extension, and unison. It's not a matter of style. It's a matter of having good fundamentals. Being sloppy is begin sloppy. It's not a style choice. It's something that should be dinged.

    Also, although they are used interchangably, chemistry and connection are not quite the same thing. Connection is more about how the two dancers are able to move, interact, react, and make adjustments to each other in real-time in addition to doing moves that are interdependent upon one another, ie. if one person goes down, they both do. IMO, in this sense, V/M have it all over D/W.

    Ahhh, aka_gerbil, snob on. It is definitely a matter of different styles when it comes to the top two ice dance teams, but what's true for you is how you see it. To me, Meryl and Charlie have continued to improve and to challenge themselves year after year, and the constant critiques about line and connection are IMO simple snobbery and excuses for those who favor V/M to justify that V/M are better because... when in actual fact nothing much separates these two teams in terms of talent and who is going to win on a given day. You really can't get away from the fact that this is a very close rivalry, and it was close at the Olympics in 2010 too, even if it's seemingly so hard for some people to swallow. Only one team can win and so the judges have a hard time and subjectivity and politics and fan bit*hing can't help but get into the mix b/c that's figure skating.

    Whoever doesn't like D/W doesn't have to. I admire V/M but I've never been fully drawn into their skating, not because of their style either. As fans, we either like particular skaters or we don't. I admired Dubreil/ Lauzon, e.g., but I didn't think they were ever better than Belbin/ Agosto. And while B/A certainly pioneered a path for North American skaters, I was never fully drawn into being a huge fan of B/A. OTOH, I loved Bourne/ Kraatz and I felt they should have won more than one World championship. Anissina/ Peizarat grew on me and took a piece of my heart. I completely admired the skating of Usova/ Zhulin and felt they should have won more, but Klimova/ Ponomarenko were always electric and their passion shone through.

    And now, as I've said, I love W/P, G/P, M/I, and the Shibs, and I adore Meryl and Charlie as they have grown on me even as they have grown as skaters over the years. It's who Meryl and Charlie are as people as much as skaters that wins my heart every time and comes through in their performances. The carping about line is just that, endless carping and haranguing. Your equating D/W's speed to sloppiness, doesn't detract one bit from their excellence nor from their hard-won achievements in sport and in life. Die Fledermaus FD, Giselle SD, and Hunchback of Notre Dame FD are the epitome of graceful precision, artistry and ice dance of the highest caliber.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    Do you think she brought up Plushenko? I'm sure she was asked about him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    The quote is from the article, and it does not say if she was asked about him.

    "I don't know we could have pulled off Plushenko's attitude," Davis told Reuters in a telephone interview before dissolving into laughter. "It seems to work for him."
    This is what I hate about articles like these. I am sure the writer put forth the Plushenko comparison to D&W--I can't see Meryl and Charlie bringing up Plushenko like that. The reporter should have said, "when asked about..."

    Anyways, I wish they would leave Plushy alone. He thought he deserved to win and said so. So what? He has put so much into this sport and I have no problem with him or any other skater being vocal about feeling they deserved to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    all the Canadian skating establishment colluded to turn it into a "was robbed" story. Did you see Tracy Wilson running out to congratulate Jamie Sale? As Jamie stood there with her sweaty arm pits, Tracy exclaimed almost defiantly, "You did it!" The camera/audio cuts away so we don't see more of this Canadian-to-Canadian talk, but if you have ever heard or read Canadians appraising their own, you would know that all of the Canadian skaters and officials were not just heartbroken but outraged by the result....
    I, too, was bothered by a lot of the coverage in the North American press (though most of what bothered me was from outside of the skating community), but i did read something in one of our papers that had a Canadian judge explaining why B&S actually deserved to win and thus the result was fair. I am not convinced everyone in the Canadian figure skating community was outraged by the result. And i am not sure what is wrong with Tracy congratulating Jamie

    Also, i agree with aftershocks re: Surya Bonaly. She was under immense pressure and I believe that had a lot to do with how she behaved. I wish that incident didn't follow her around.

    Also agree with The Accordion--I hate when anyone assumes that an entire group of people thinks alike and that they can speak for said group. That is just bad journalism.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Wouldn't it be vastly more entertaining if they did something like that old Yags & Plush rivalry fluff, with them staring pensively at the snow from the windows of abandoned buildings, while proclaiming that they kind of hate each other
    Haha. I am a Yags uber, but imo, Mishin is the star of that clip

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    Having good lines is not a matter of snobbery. It's a matter of it's something that's been important in dance (and valued in ice dance as well) for many years and considered a fundamental good thing. Same with posture, extension, and unison. It's not a matter of style. It's a matter of having good fundamentals. Being sloppy is begin sloppy. It's not a style choice. It's something that should be dinged.

    Also, although they are used interchangably, chemistry and connection are not quite the same thing. Connection is more about how the two dancers are able to move, interact, react, and make adjustments to each other in real-time in addition to doing moves that are interdependent upon one another, ie. if one person goes down, they both do. IMO, in this sense, V/M have it all over D/W.
    great explanation, aka_gerbil.

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