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  1. #161

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    Imho the Phillipine Figure Skating Association should sanction both Caluza and Mrs. Martinez, possibly with a fine as well. And if worse comes to worse they should do what the WTA did to Monica Seles father, banned for life from attending any WTA events. Enough is enough.

    silence is golden

  2. #162
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    OFF TOPIC:

    That was Mary Pierce's abusive and crazy father.

    Monica Seles' father was on all account very nice (he used to draw cartoons to motivate Seles to play and have fun) and he passed away from cancer, which took a major toll on Seles.

  3. #163

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    I don't see how Mrs. Martinez can or should be sanctioned. Obviously she is not a skater and she's not listed as Michael's coach anymore in the ISU bio. Is she affiliated in any other official capacity with the federation? Whatever funding they get (if there is any) is for her son - who has not done anything wrong that I'm aware of. I suppose they could tell her not to come to Nationals next year. But unlike Bulanhagui, she didn't criticize the federation itself, so I doubt it'll come to that.

    As for Caluza, he never named any names and he's done nothing that's against the rules. He's already lost the assignment that he really wanted. So what would be the point, exactly?

  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    As for Caluza, he never named any names and he's done nothing that's against the rules. He's already lost the assignment that he really wanted. So what would be the point, exactly?
    I think an argument can be made that thinly-veiled messages on a public forum against another skater in your federation could warrant a sanction. As for the point, maybe it would be to deter other skaters from exhibiting similar behavior? Maybe any future assignments he may have gotten but for his quick typing fingers and lack of mature judgment.

    The Federation needs to show some leadership and show that they have some control over its members when it comes to this sort of mud-slinging.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #165
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    Caluza was clearly trolling (and continues to do so with his subsequent 'great minds' tweet) and Maria Teresa Martinez caught the bait.

    Quote Originally Posted by DimaToe View Post
    The PHI skating fed needs to sit their skaters down and go over social media and such. Establishing championship selection criteria/procedure wouldn't hurt either wonder if this is all part of being a newer skating fed. ?
    Yes and probably yes, they just don't have experience yet and if it's mostly older people who run it, they might not know much about social media.

    I think that the best practice as far as selection criteria goes is what the Finnish Fed does.

    If I remember it correctly, there is a number of events assigned (before the start of the season) which are taken into consideration. The highest average point value from all of these events (national and international events and nationals) = selection for Euros and Worlds. Clear, transparent and fair and it rewards skating consistently all season as opposed to having one good competition at Nationals.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I think that the best practice as far as selection criteria goes is what the Finnish Fed does.

    If I remember it correctly, there is a number of events assigned (before the start of the season) which are taken into consideration. The highest average point value from all of these events (national and international events and nationals) = selection for Euros and Worlds. Clear, transparent and fair and it rewards skating consistently all season as opposed to having one good competition at Nationals.
    Why reward consistency at the expense of the ability to perform well when the pressure is the greatest? (Not that the P.S.U. is rewarding one or the other. I am asking as the issue relates to skating federations generally.)

    Beyond that, the Finnish Federation has some advantages that the P.S.U. does not, such as that most of its skaters train in their home country and that there are many Junior Grand Prix and Senior and Junior "B" events in nearby countries. I'm not sure that the P.S.U. could implement such a system right now even if it wanted to do so.

  7. #167
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    It definitely wouldn't be applicable for the Filipino federation in the same way but the least they could have done was send Perticheto & Bulanghui and Caluza & Martinez to the same international events to see how they would stack up when judged by an independent judging panel.

  8. #168
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    I went to look at Caluza's tweets and found that a @skating_ako was poking at him in addition. You will see only three tweets, which have a familiar message. So I am not really sure who started it or what occurred. I will say this however, we are all here because we love figure skating, and this type of activity toward each other reduces the beauty of our sport. Is it smart for the Olympic runner up to get into a fight with anyone. If Martinez is hurt for the Olympics, has Caluza now injured his chances in some way. Much the way that Bulanghui automatically got early retirement?

    I also think that the ISU needs to continue education to developing countries and their skating unions. I am not even sure smaller skating unions would even know that things like this are going on, as it was pointed out that the operators of these unions are generally older. I know that larger ones watch all the activities of their skaters, and the skaters are told what the game rules are. The communication is more open. New members will not have this type of skills in the beginning and will require more assistance from the ISU. To me these unions operate a branch office of the ISU. Some will be more skilled, larger, and have more resources. But the policy toward these types of things needs to come from headquarters, and be specific about how they review this information with their skaters and families. I am not saying they need to police it, but I am saying that in an increasing world of social media, they must set the guidelines to how these sorts of things are handled. After all, each one of these events, affects what people think about figure skating.

  9. #169
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    Caluza's tweets from early October seemed to be directed to the federation after the selection was made, which supports the theory of lack of transparency and/or clarity in the criteria.

    Fool me once; nice attempt. Fool me twice; never again.

    Never will I ever go down without a fight!!! Believe that, know that, TAKE THAT!!!!!
    Keep in mind Martinez has already competed 5 times this season - hopefully he'll better manage his recovery and training schedule by 4CCs and Olympics.

  10. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think an argument can be made that thinly-veiled messages on a public forum against another skater in your federation could warrant a sanction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Caluza was clearly trolling (and continues to do so with his subsequent 'great minds' tweet) and Maria Teresa Martinez caught the bait.
    Oh, Caluza is trolling, but he is not stupid. He never goes so far as to name anyone or say anything specific about his federation, and therefore they can't accuse him of inappropriate behavior.

  11. #171

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    Caluza was being snarky, no doubt.

    But Mrs. Martinez' rant is despicable. She's exactly the kind of "monster mom" who SHOULD be reprimanded. I can appreciate her wanting to stand up for her child but, frankly, this isn't her battle. Her entire post was reprehensible. The only thing she accomplished was showing herself to be the true d-bag that she is.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Beyond that, the Finnish Federation has some advantages that the P.S.U. does not, such as that most of its skaters train in their home country and that there are many Junior Grand Prix and Senior and Junior "B" events in nearby countries. I'm not sure that the P.S.U. could implement such a system right now even if it wanted to do so.
    That doesn't seemed to have stopped whoever is paying for both of them to take part in international events:

    Caluza:
    • 2012-13: Ice Challenge, USIFC, 4C's, Worlds
    • 2013-14: Lombardia, USIFC


    Martinez:
    • 2012-13: Volvo Cup, Crystal Skate, Cup of Nice, 4C's, Jr. Worlds + two JGPs
    • 2013-14: Volvo Open, USIFC + two JGP's


    Caluza and Martinez went head to head once last season and once at the beginning of this season:

    2013 Four Continents:
    • Caluza: 58.53 + 128.26 = 186.79
    • Martinez: 64.62 + 113.46 = 178.08


    2013 USIFC:
    • Caluza: 61.79 + 123.54 = 185.83
    • Martinez: 59.65 + 123.39 = 183.04


    With two head-to-head competitions and other international competitions over the last two seasons, there was no reason the Philippine Federation couldn't have created an algorithm to determine whom to send.

    Their decision to appoint someone early meant that Martinez wouldn't have had to skate Nationals injured or for their two skaters to be stressed out over competing up to the Olympic qualifier/final calculation, just as other federations have done for their top skaters. It's definitely a trade-off.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    That doesn't seemed to have stopped whoever is paying for both of them to take part in international events:
    Themselves and their families as far as I'm aware. Like many smaller/new skating nations, the Philippines nor its skaters get any government funding or support.

    As for the people running the smaller/new federations being older and not familiar with social media, that's certainly not my experience. In fact, the opposite is more likely to be the case. Caluza hasn't complained directly about his federation or a fellow skater so I'm not sure what anyone expects the Philippines federation to do. As for Mrs Martinez, she is also probably not a member of the Philippines federation so again they cannot tell her what to be posting or not on Facebook/Twitter.

    Because the skaters aren't getting funding from their federations, the only thing the federation holds over them is access to assignments. And if the Philippines or any other country is not sending their skaters out to competitions their membership of the ISU could be in jeopardy for not being active enough. It's a very precarious situation for a lot of these countries that those of you from more well-established skating nations are just not familiar with.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  14. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I feel sorry for Martinez but then he would probably never make it that far, given the limited resources available in the Philippines if she wasn't so crazy about his skating.
    I first noticed Martinez's mother when she spoke out strongly about her son's lack of financial support from the government and federation in this article before the 2012 Youth Olympic Games: http://www.insidethegames.biz/sports...s-on-thin-ice-

    It shocked me at the time, but then I realized that many "dragon"-type skating mothers or fathers don't care what outsiders think of them when it comes to protecting and defending the interests of their skater child. However, I agree with those who have posted that the personal attack in her recent outburst on FB was totally unnecessary (Zemgirl's post #149 contains a much better hypothetical response).

    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Themselves and their families as far as I'm aware. Like many smaller/new skating nations, the Philippines nor its skaters get any government funding or support.
    Here's an editorial that was published before the start of Philippine Nationals: Michael Martinez: Our silver lining
    Excerpt (bolded by me):
    The feat of this 17-year-old boy is one that should make every Filipino proud. Imagine, a country like ours with no snow can produce a world-class ice skater, and despite frequent asthma attacks, is ranked 28th among the best senior-level figure skaters in the planet? Earlier this year, he competed and finished 7th at the 2013 Nebelhorn Trophy in Germany, the last qualifying event for the 2014 Winter Olympics, another first for the country.

    But the young phenom knows that hurdling his next challenge will not be as smooth as gliding on ice. With only two months left to prepare, Michael admits that his training is far from complete. For one, he needs four hours of daily training with a coach, but he and his mother Teresa can only afford to pay for one hour. Imagine, billions of taxpayer money is being wasted on ghost projects while this amazingly talented boy does not even get any support from politicians and government officials? What are these sports bodies doing?

    What has kept him “on ice” (no pun) for the past few years have been donations from sponsors gathered by the Philippine Skating Union. Michael’s biggest backer so far is the SM Group that owns the ice rinks in SM MOA and SM Southmall, the latter being the rink where he started skating recreationally in 2005. Thank heavens for the company that has given the young athlete P1 million earlier this year, which he used to cover expenses for training in the US and for competing in Europe.

    One could only admire the tenacity of his mother Teresa who reveals that she has used up 25 years of savings in just three years for her son’s training abroad, explaining the cost of pursuing the Olympic dream: “It will cost you half a million pesos per competition. You also pay for the air fare and hotel of the coach. His coach charges $400 a day. One of his coaches in the US charges $100 an hour. He also has an Olympic coach who charges $150 and a choreographer who charges $130. Ice time is $16 for six hours,” she discloses. Include transportation and food and she reckons a daily expense of $500 to $600.
    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Because the skaters aren't getting funding from their federations, the only thing the federation holds over them is access to assignments. And if the Philippines or any other country is not sending their skaters out to competitions their membership of the ISU could be in jeopardy for not being active enough. It's a very precarious situation for a lot of these countries that those of you from more well-established skating nations are just not familiar with.
    THIS. For example, Puerto Rico: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...013-14-Updates

    ETA:
    Caluza also won Philippine Nationals over Martinez last November - from the Archives:
    Men's unofficial total scores (FS scores added to SP): Caluza 187.28 (120.79 FS), Eguia 153.56 (101.79), Martinez 152.06 (97.41)
    BTW, I've posted unofficial, partial results for this year's Philippine Nationals in the Kiss and Cry: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...nila-Nov-23-24
    Last edited by Sylvia; 11-26-2013 at 03:23 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  15. #175
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    Yes its the skater's and their families pay most of the cost if they compete internationally (though I heard they get some compensation for big competition like Worlds, and Olympics). For example Cabiles the 3rd placer in juniors last year was the only female competitor they had at the junior Grand Prix, which I am assuming because Perticheto and others does not have enough funds to compete in this events.

    Here is a feature on Martinez: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTtqe332gMQ

    It's mostly in Filipino but he did say that his mother is a perfectionist and the only time he saw his mom smile and hugged him in the kiss and cry was when he placed 7th in Nebelhorn

  16. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by twicken View Post
    he did say that his mother is a perfectionist and the only time he saw his mom smile and hugged him in the kiss and cry was when he placed 7th in Nebelhorn
    Well, doesn't that just give you a warm and fuzzy feeling...

    I've found that, when referring to these Monster Moms as "perfectionists," what it really translates to is living vicariously through their children and, through their ridiculous demands, pushing their kids 1000% harder than they would ever dream of pushing themselves. I don't consider that love. It's a sickness, really.

    I wish Michael good luck.
    Last edited by skateboy; 11-27-2013 at 01:48 AM.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  17. #177

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    Bottom line-- This twitter war (and Bulanhagui's) would have never escalated had the selection process been transparent. When there is a closed-door selection process, someone gets hurt. Hurt feelings are managed differently by different people. TRANSPARENT selection processes are a must. ALWAYS.
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  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    I'll make sure I never upset the Filipino cleaning lady we have at work.
    Sorry, but WTF??

  19. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by siouxdonym View Post
    Sorry, but WTF??
    Thank you siouxdonym. I thought exactly the same thing but wasn't bold enough to say it. You said it for me.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayar View Post
    Bottom line-- This twitter war (and Bulanhagui's) would have never escalated had the selection process been transparent. When there is a closed-door selection process, someone gets hurt. Hurt feelings are managed differently by different people. TRANSPARENT selection processes are a must. ALWAYS.
    Transparent, yes. But if you're saying that smaller countries have to have selection policies like the U.S. then I don't agree. Smaller federations have to make strategic decisions about what is best for the sport in their country. It is clear the the selectors in the Philippines feel that Martinez who is homegrown, much younger and has greater technical skills than Caluza is what will help the sport to grow at home. Sucks for Caluza, but I'd make the same decision myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by siouxdonym View Post
    Sorry, but WTF??
    Was there something you didn't understand? Or does WTF mean What The Filippino?
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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