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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Was there something you didn't understand? Or does WTF mean What The Filippino?
    quoting this for posterity before (or if) the author realizes how blatantly insensitive and racist these statements are and edits them out

  2. #182
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    Is there a moderator handy? Lines are being crossed here. There are deeply offensive posts.

  3. #183
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Well, doesn't that just give you a warm and fuzzy feeling...

    I've found that, when referring to these Dragon Mothers as "perfectionists," what it really translates to is living vicariously through their children and, through their ridiculous demands, pushing their kids 1000% harder than they would ever dream of pushing themselves. I don't consider that love. It's a sickness, really.

    .

    I find the stereotyping of moms from a particular origin offensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UMBS Go Blue View Post
    quoting this for posterity before (or if) the author realizes how blatantly insensitive and racist these statements are and edits them out
    Why would I edit them out? I didn't realise that someone being employed as a cleaning lady was insensitive and racist, but I suppose you learn something new every day.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Transparent, yes. But if you're saying that smaller countries have to have selection policies like the U.S. then I don't agree. Smaller federations have to make strategic decisions about what is best for the sport in their country. It is clear the the selectors in the Philippines feel that Martinez who is homegrown, much younger and has greater technical skills than Caluza is what will help the sport to grow at home. Sucks for Caluza, but I'd make the same decision myself.
    Fred, transparent doesn't mean like in the US. It means transparent. Clear enough?
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayar View Post
    Fred, transparent doesn't mean like in the US. It means transparent. Clear enough?
    Just because we don't know what the selection criteria was for the Olympics does not mean the skaters don't know either. It could very well have been "whoever is selected for the Olympic qualifier and earns a spot is the skater that gets to use the spot".
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Because the skaters aren't getting funding from their federations, the only thing the federation holds over them is access to assignments. And if the Philippines or any other country is not sending their skaters out to competitions their membership of the ISU could be in jeopardy for not being active enough. It's a very precarious situation for a lot of these countries that those of you from more well-established skating nations are just not familiar with.
    You're presenting this as if the option was either to do nothing or to ban skaters from competing. What the federation should do is sit them down, lay out some social media guidelines and ask them to conduct themselves in a professional manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Was there something you didn't understand? Or does WTF mean What The Filippino?
    You're more than eloquent enough to understand how that comment could have come across.

    You assumed that the person from your work's personality could be similar to Maria Teresa Martinez's just because of her ethnicity (which is pretty much the definition of racism) and had to highlight the fact that person was a 'cleaning lady' in the same sentence (obviously it's women who clean - it's their job isn't it?).

    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I've found that, when referring to these Mothers as "perfectionists," what it really translates to is living vicariously through their children and, through their ridiculous demands, pushing their kids 1000% harder than they would ever dream of pushing themselves. I don't consider that love. It's a sickness, really.
    Sadly, it's very often this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayar View Post
    Bottom line-- This twitter war (and Bulanhagui's) would have never escalated had the selection process been transparent. When there is a closed-door selection process, someone gets hurt. Hurt feelings are managed differently by different people. TRANSPARENT selection processes are a must. ALWAYS.
    And this sums all the drama up.

    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Just because we don't know what the selection criteria was for the Olympics does not mean the skaters don't know either. It could very well have been "whoever is selected for the Olympic qualifier and earns a spot is the skater that gets to use the spot".
    And then the question is, how you select the skater for the Olympic qualifier.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 11-27-2013 at 12:36 AM.

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    I find the stereotyping of moms from a particular origin offensive.
    I agree. If my using the term "Dragon Mothers" came off as racist, that wasn't my intention and, if it was interpreted that way, I apologize. I meant it to refer to ANY mom who comes off as over-the-top domineering and controlling.

    I acutally prefer the term "Monster Mom" even better (which I previously used in post #171), so I will edit my later post with that wordage.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  10. #190
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    No problem.
    Truth is, I think there is a fine line between a very engaged mom who pushes her kid to success (I suspect many world champs have one) and a "monster mom". Since I don't know Martinez's mom's situation and given the country's very limited resources, I'd rather not judge whether she's overly zealous or she's just fending for her son's interest -- at least not based on a tweet or a facebook message.

  11. #191

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    Mrs Martinez spent 25 years of savings in three years? What is the family going to do if Michael doesn't make it big? I hope she still has at least a little something stashed away.

    I can't imagine the (internal/external) pressure young Michael must feel to make this investment pay off.

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    But that isn't any different from, say, parents from wealthier countries who mortgaged and remortgaged their house over and over to finance their kids' skating. One such example came to mind in the form of a US champion.

  13. #193
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    This discussion reminds me of a wonderful article in the Food Issue of "The New Yorker" (4 Nov 2013), in which Adam Gopnik wrote an essay about making bread. (It's sadly under lock and key for subscribers only on its website, or I'd link to it.) In it, he goes to his parents house for the weekend recently to learn to bake bread from his mother, a retired college professor: "One of the first women in North America to earn a Ph.D. in mathematical logic, she became a notable linguist and (as she would be the first to tell you) also reared six kids, for whom she cooked a big French-ish dinner every night." She was also a prodigious baker.

    On Monday morning, I packed the loaves and broissants ["essentially a brioche egg dough with butter folded into it"] and bagels in my overnight bag. I would take them home to study and share with my own children. I gave my mother a hug. "It's such fun to bake with you, dear," she said. "Of course, I spent years making you bread every morning. We always had croissants and muffins and--oh, dear, I always had so many things out for you."

    ...

    Children always reinterpret their parents' sense of obligation as compulsion. It's not They did it for me but They did it because they wanted to. She wanted to bake that bread; you told those bedtime stories every night, really, for yourself. There'd be no surviving without that move, the debt guilt would be too great to shoulder. In order to supply the unique amount of care that children demand, we have to enter into a contract in amnesia where neither side is entirely honest about the costs. If we ever totted up the debt, we would be unable to bear it. Parents who insist on registering the asymmetry accurately (the Jewish mother in a Roth novel, the Japanese father in an Ozu film) become objects of frantic mockery, or, at best, pity for their compulsiveness. "All I do is give and give and what reward to I get? You never call!" the Jewish mother moans in the novel, and we laugh and laugh, and she is right--she did give and give, and we don't call. She is wrong only to say it out loud. In the market of emotions, that sacrifice is already known, and discounted for, as the price of life.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corianna View Post
    Is there a moderator handy?
    As a matter of fact, yes. allezfred is an administrator, and UMBS Go Blue is a moderator. http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showgroups.php

    AFAIK, they are already addressing the issue.

  15. #195
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    I thought you would all find this interesting, and it may explain why it seams to be more social media associated with the Philippines. As you read thru the article about social media and the Philippines which is the social media capital of the world. The rules are very different then what we may assume. I included a link below and a clip from the page, talking about the fact it is a filipino cultural thing. After reading the article, I think Filipinos may think of social media as a way to talk to each other more so then people from any other place on earth. I am not making excuses for what happened with their skaters and moms in social media, but this may explain why filipino's are so quick to post on line If this is true, the union might look at this activity as just people blowing off steam or providing their opinions as if they were yelling at each other. We wouldn't do this because it is in a public setting, but apparently they might think this is the normal thing to do, which hilariously might turn out to be the most transparent thing of all.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_...he_Philippines

    Social networking is one of the most active web-based activities in the Philippines, with Filipinos being declared as the most active users on a number of web-based social network sites such as Friendster, Friendly, Facebook, and Twitter. The use of social networking website has become so extensive in the Philippines that the country has been tagged as "The Social Networking Capital of the World," and has also become part of Filipino cyberculture.

  16. #196

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    I am really late in reading this thread, but I was struck by Mrs. Martinez's repeated "23 year old" comments. One of the things that is driving me away from my long-time love of this sport (and the men's discipline in particular) is the lack of appreciation for skaters like Caluza, who have had long and varied careers, ups and downs and injuries, yet hang in there and continue to improve and add new skills and jumps to their repertoires. Due to technical demands, injuries and the high cost of training, we just don't see as many journeyman skaters as we used to, and I for one miss those guys. At the rate of spending going towards Mr. Martinez's training, the risk of injury, and the pressure of sponsor, parental and Federation expectations that I have no doubt he is feeling, he will be fortunate to still be able to train and compete at the age of 23. At that point, Mrs. Martinez can work on fending off the next young up-and-comer.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheylana View Post
    Mrs Martinez spent 25 years of savings in three years? What is the family going to do if Michael doesn't make it big? I hope she still has at least a little something stashed away.

    I can't imagine the (internal/external) pressure young Michael must feel to make this investment pay off.
    Guys we really should be realistic here before we judge... Do you think that families of amateur skaters from other countries doesn't have the same financial investment from their families? Who do you think is paying for those skates, ice time, travel expenses, coaching etc. not just in this sport but you can say that for almost any amateur athlete.

  18. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by twicken View Post
    Guys we really should be realistic here before we judge... Do you think that families of amateur skaters from other countries doesn't have the same financial investment from their families? Who do you think is paying for those skates, ice time, travel expenses, coaching etc. not just in this sport but you can say that for almost any amateur athlete.
    I imagine there is a significant difference between the income of parents in the US/Canada/Western Europe and those of someone from the Philippines. Which means that the same expenses would represent a much heavier financial burden for someone like Mrs. Martinez.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I imagine there is a significant difference between the income of parents in the US/Canada/Western Europe and those of someone from the Philippines. Which means that the same expenses would represent a much heavier financial burden for someone like Mrs. Martinez.
    we don't know how financially capable his family are so just saying she is from the Philippines criticizing her for what other parents from western countries do is somehow wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twicken View Post
    Guys we really should be realistic here before we judge... Do you think that families of amateur skaters from other countries doesn't have the same financial investment from their families? Who do you think is paying for those skates, ice time, travel expenses, coaching etc. not just in this sport but you can say that for almost any amateur athlete.
    Quote Originally Posted by twicken View Post
    we don't know how financially capable his family are so just saying she is from the Philippines criticizing her for what other parents from western countries do is somehow wrong.
    You are reading way too much into my one comment. Who's "judging" or "criticizing"? I was making an observation. Parents spending off one's life savings means pressure on the skater, regardless of the nationality. But did you read the article Sylvia quoted above? We do have an indication of how financially capable Michael's family is -- they spent 25 years of savings in three years, and he needs more ice time than she can afford to pay. Doubt they have a stack of cash lying around. They are also at an exchange rate disadvantage when they have to pay for US training and pay for Michael's expenses to travel to international competitions. But whatever, it's her choice, hope it works out for them.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

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