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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by icedancefan View Post
    I don't know who you are referring to but I am not remotely connected to any skater.
    You must not be an ice dance fan.

    I was making a jocular reference to Lynn Mitchell. Google is your friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by icedancefan View Post
    What is the point of having multiple federations-many of whom have little clout-to be only represented by skaters from huge feds like USA, Canada, Russia?
    Well, let's see.....

    Russia has recently been represented by Yuko Kawaguchi, who was born in and used to skate for Japan, Tatiana Volosozhar, who was born in and used to skate for Ukraine, Jonathan Guerreiro was born in Australia and reprented that country before changing federations, and Ksenia Makarova, who used to skate for the United States. If we go back a little further, we see that Elena Berezhnaya skated for Latvia before she skated for Russia, Fedor Andreev skated for Canada before he skated for Russia, and Julia Obertas was born in and skated for Ukraine before she skated for Russia.

    Canada has recently been represented by Piper Gilles, who used to skate for the United States. Kaitlyn Weaver skated for the United States before representing Canada. Bryce Davison was born in the United States and has never relinquished his American citizenship. Utako Wakamatsu competed internationally for Japan before representing Canada, and she actually chose not to obtain Canadian citizenship because it would mean relinquishing her Japanese citizenship. Viktor Kraatz was born in West Germany.

    The United States has been represented internationally by, among others, Rena Inoue and Kyoko Ina, who had previously skated for Japan, Gorsha Sur, Denis Petukhov and Peter Tchernyshev, who had previously skated for the U.S.S.R. and/or Russia, and Todd Sand, who had previously represented Denmark. Joelle Forte and Ann Patrice McDonough were born in South Korea.

    What is the point of allowing these federations to have so much clout when they have to filch their talent from other federations?
    Last edited by Vagabond; 03-10-2013 at 02:20 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    What is the point of allowing these federations to have so much clout when they have to filch their talent from other federations?


    +1

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by icedancefan View Post
    Half of the female singles competitors at 4 Continents were americans. These girls probably had never set foot in the countries that they represent.
    Actually, only 5 of the 20 ladies at 2013 Four Continents were born outside the country they represent and I know all 5 have set foot in their respective countries before due to family ties and/or competitions there. Not all of them are wealthy either and usually have to cover their own competition costs.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=icedancefan;3859061]
    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Were country switches a problem for you when it was Tanith Belbin? What about when foreign coaches come to the US to train mainly American skaters?


    hell yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    act of Congress no less.
    What is the point of allowing multiple countries to represent if the competitors only represent in name only.
    These countries should have the opportunity to send their own. Instead it is nothing but wealthy americans taking local's spots. Because they can.($$$$$$$) Half of the female singles competitors at 4 Continents were americans. These girls probably had never set foot in the countries that they represent.
    The Philippines and the USA have close historic ties , and there are millions of Philipino Americans going generations in the USA. It is not unusual that there would be people eligible for both American and Philippine citizenship. You don't necessary have to be any richer than anyone else, and it is perfectly legitimate. Regardless, isn't this new crop of talent actually native to the Philippine islands?

    Based on your sentiment, I wonder if you think Americans should not use foreign choreographers. It's only the rich ones who can afford to hire Russian choreographers.

    I think someone who has dual citizenship often is doing a great thing by representing another country even while training in the USA. Not all skaters who represent "small countries" are as bad the Russians, Canadians, and Americans who have represented Azerbaijan, Belarus, and Georgia. Most of the AZE lot have been desperate mercenaries or just desperate. Desperation is something I do frown upon when it comes to representing a country. Skaters who could represent the USA in pairs, like Jennifer Don, but who chose to be fifth rate singles competitors for their grandmother's country are lame. It's a subjective line you cross, but I think country hopping is what some find distasteful, especially when someone represents a country where he/she cannot speak the language.

    Also, I believe in some cases the country's federation/program doesn't seem to benefit in anything but a superficial way. How many homegrown AZE skaters have we seen? Have all these random tossed-over Russians, CANs, and USAs created an independent and competitive AZE field. The answer is obviously no.

    Yet, in other cases, Americans taking advantage of citizenship loopholes (which is what American dual citizenship technically is, albeit a completely legal one in the USA) can be good for other countries and the sport in two respects. It can A) create native interest in the sport and increase competition "locally," or B) it can be positive when the skater represents the non-resident country successfully by any standard and is not a mediocre Four Continents reject. Alice Sue Claeys of Atlanta, Georgia, for example, who we discussed in another thread represented Belgium for a time (1991-1994) because of her Belgian grandparent. If nothing else, you can say she made Belgium look good with two memorable programs and a top 8 world finish in 1992. That worlds would have been less impressive had she been left at home as a 5th or 6th place American. She also was too tall for pairs, so that wasn't an option.

    Every situation is unique, but there are definitely classy and less classy ways to represent countries you don't reside in.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 03-10-2013 at 01:31 AM.

  5. #25
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    Dual or multiple US/[other(s)] citizenship is not a loophole: the Supreme Court ruled that it was the constitutional right of US citizens to retain their US citizenship while attaining or being born into others in most cases.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Dual or multiple US/[other(s)] citizenship is not a loophole: the Supreme Court ruled that it was the constitutional right of US citizens to retain their US citizenship while attaining or being born into others in most cases.
    This is very true, and thank you for clarifying, but when people object to skaters shopping around for federations, I don't think they are concerned about what USA law is--though it is of course relevant to the IOC. As a fan, I feel that a few American skaters are lame for changing countries to do singles when they had opportunities in pairs within the United States, but that is my opinion. Clearly, funding and federation politics come into play, and so may the dangers of pair skating, so I cannot can say what is the right decision for that individual.

    I believe some degree of patriotism and continuity is good. Having ancestral or familial ties to a country you represent is good. These are just my personal feelings on the matter. The AZE federation has sometimes seemed like the Cayman Islands of skating citizenship.

    I apologize for this diversion from celebrating the rise of multiple skaters from the Philippines.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    As a fan, I feel that a few American skaters are lame for changing countries to do singles when they had opportunities in pairs within the United States, but that is my opinion. Clearly, funding and federation politics come into play, and so may the dangers of pair skating, so I cannot can say what is the right decision for that individual.
    As you noted, pairs skating isn't for everyone, nor should it be viewed as a plan B for lower ranked men and ladies. If it's what they want to do and they're good at it, that's great - but if they have other options they'd rather explore, that's fine too.

    I apologize for this diversion from celebrating the rise of multiple skaters from the Philippines.
    That is indeed a welcome trend. And even if not all of them live in the Philippines, having skaters of different backgrounds makes the sport more diverse, which is also good.

  8. #28
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    I agree with you so much about the value of diversity of nations and peoples. Somebody mentioned the Phillippines and performing arts, and it is true that they have many good actors and singers. It would not surprise me if skating keeps growing there.

  9. #29
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    Thank you so much for starting this thread, AlexDSSF!

    I have been following some of the Filipino skaters, especially Christopher Caluza (and it is nice to encounter some of his other fans here), whom I think is a beautiful skater. Is he still being coached by N. Bobrina?

    and I think Melissa Bulanhagui has a definite shot at making the Olympics next year.

    I have long admired the arts programs in the Philippines, and I would love to see that influence in figure skating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    ... And even if not all of them live in the Philippines, having skaters of different backgrounds makes the sport more diverse, which is also good.
    ITA.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    What is the point of allowing these federations to have so much clout when they have to filch their talent from other federations?
    haha, love it

  11. #31
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    Yes, Bobrina was with Caluza in the K&C at Worlds.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Yes, Bobrina was with Caluza in the K&C at Worlds.
    thanks, Ziggy. I missed the live stream so I didn't get to see all of the skaters. I was hoping someone would upload his performance to youtube, but I haven't found anything yet.

  13. #33
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    Will be interesting what the decision process will be for the male entrant for Nebelhorn. I think both should make top 6 (based on those countries who still need to qualify)

  14. #34
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    being filipina myself, i would love to see the philippines make an impact on ice-dancing since dancesport is huge there, and we filipinos love dancing.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    Will be interesting what the decision process will be for the male entrant for Nebelhorn. I think both should make top 6 (based on those countries who still need to qualify)
    I love Caluza but Martinez needs to go. 5th at Junior Worlds, big momentum behind him, judges seem to love him and he has a 3axel that's consistent.

  16. #36

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    Christopher Caluza article/interview: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news
    Excerpts:
    ... I didn't want to compete for the Philippines unless I was ready and good enough. Making U.S. nationals in senior was a goal and a test for me. I didn't want to compete for another country until I had "U.S. national competitor" on my resume.

    There is a huge responsibility that comes with being a national champion, or even just a representative of your country. It's important to not just compete and do well but also to be a good example to your community.

    I knew I was ready because I earned and deserved the right to compete internationally and to represent the Philippines. I'd done my job in the U.S., and many people from the U.S. actually supported my decision. It was time for me to do it, and I don't regret it.

    Icenetwork.com: How do you see skating developing in your country?

    Caluza: I believe that skating can grow in the Philippines. I know that many of the kids are really working hard, and I have become a fan and friend of a lot of them, including the coaches. It is very much a privilege to be able to even skate competitively in the Philippines.

    My parents talked about what it is like there, and it is nothing compared to actually experiencing it. It's very hard. I see thousands of people trying to find work, trying to do anything to support their families. I cried leaving the country my first time because I was going back to the U.S., where we have everything, and a lot of people don't.

    I believe a sport can grow and get bigger with more people representing it. I heard there is going to be an ice rink south of the Philippines, so that is good. Skating can grow and, hopefully, become popular there.
    ...
    Icenetwork.com: What are your plans for the next season?

    Caluza: I'm still picking my long, but I'm skating to "Jumpin' Jack" (by Big Bad Voodoo Daddy) for my short. My free skate will be another concerto. I'm still planning which competitions I'm going to be sent to. I've been working on my triple Axel and quad loop, so I hope to make this season my best one yet.

    This may be my only chance for the Olympics, as I still don't know what I will be doing the next four years from now. This season will be difficult, but I love what I do.
    ETA that the second ISU World Development Trophy was held in Manila from April 16-20 and included a one day competition for Junior/Novice singles skaters - link to the thread in GSD with a local preview article and results: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3905294
    Last edited by Sylvia; 05-21-2013 at 06:41 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  17. #37

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    Looking forward to Caluza's new programs. It's good to know that these smaller more unknown countries in skating can groom skaters like Caluza. Hope to see more skaters from small countries. Maybe some day, Philippines can have a world medallist.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by icedancefan View Post
    What is the point of having multiple federations-many of whom have little clout-to be only represented by skaters from huge feds like USA, Canada, Russia?
    Japan federation is also considered to huge fed in figure skating.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgobluegirl View Post
    Who cares? It's cool that they're doing well in their opportunities to skate internationally, and as posted earlier, Michael Martinez does skate in the Philippines. And by virtue of their good results, they could inspire future generations of skaters in the Philippines. It's always nice to see new and different flags represented in ISU championships, and expanding the sport internationally can't hurt.
    I care (obviously).
    It might not be the case for the current Philippines skaters, but in general I heavily dislike the "Azerbaijan Syndrome", both as a skating fan and as a spectator. When US number 4 can't skate in the 4cc, but US number 58 can because she found some distant relation to an obscure Asian country, I find that both unwatchable and against the sports spirit.

    And no, that doesn't help to develop the local skating. It's very difficult to develop the local skating if
    1)it didn't exist to start with.
    2)the "imported star" doesn't even appear in her/his "home country" and if s/he does, s/he can't communicate with the local skaters for lack of common language.
    3)every time a local skater appears, s/he gets replaced by a slightly better foreign import.
    In fact, it does exactly the opposite: kills the national skating.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not against changes of countries, but there must be some sane limit to it. Philippines might not be an example for the absurd the change of flags became (if the info on this thread is correct), but Azerbaijan and some other federations definitely are.
    In Soviet Russia, the skaters lobbychick YOU.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey aka Pushkin View Post
    I care (obviously).
    It might not be the case for the current Philippines skaters, but in general I heavily dislike the "Azerbaijan Syndrome", both as a skating fan and as a spectator. When US number 4 can't skate in the 4cc, but US number 58 can because she found some distant relation to an obscure Asian country, I find that both unwatchable and against the sports spirit.
    By and large, the U.S. and Canadian skaters who skate for overseas federations fall into two categories.

    1. People with a close family connection to other countries. (Typically, their parents were immigrants.)
    2. People wishing to compete in ice dance or pairs with a skater from another country.

    North American skaters in the first group often either have citizenship in the second country from birth or can obtain it as a matter of right.

    North American skaters in the second group typically are chosen because their partner cannot find anyone suitable in his or her own country. These skaters have to earn citizenship if they want to skate in the Olympics, usually by having what is considered to be "extraordinary talent."

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey aka Pushkin View Post
    And no, that doesn't help to develop the local skating. It's very difficult to develop the local skating if
    1)it didn't exist to start with.
    2)the "imported star" doesn't even appear in her/his "home country" and if s/he does, s/he can't communicate with the local skaters for lack of common language.
    3)every time a local skater appears, s/he gets replaced by a slightly better foreign import.
    In fact, it does exactly the opposite: kills the national skating.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not against changes of countries, but there must be some sane limit to it. Philippines might not be an example for the absurd the change of flags became (if the info on this thread is correct), but Azerbaijan and some other federations definitely are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey aka Pushkin View Post
    And no, that doesn't help to develop the local skating. It's very difficult to develop the local skating if
    1)it didn't exist to start with.
    2)the "imported star" doesn't even appear in her/his "home country" and if s/he does, s/he can't communicate with the local skaters for lack of common language.
    3)every time a local skater appears, s/he gets replaced by a slightly better foreign import.
    In fact, it does exactly the opposite: kills the national skating.
    I would agree that having an "imported star" doesn't usually help develop skating in the new "home country," but that's largely because the skater usually doesn't actually stay there, train there, or coach younger skaters there. On the other hand, it simply isn't true that none of these skaters can communicate in the local language. Many immigrant families do speak their ancestral language at home.

    I'm also not sure that it is true that "every time a local skater appears, s/he gets replaced by a slightly better foreign import." With the current qualifying rules, the homegrown skaters usually cannot get into the ISU Championships any more. The one place one might expect to see the effect you are describing is on the Junior Grand Prix, but I am not sure that this is the case, and even if it is, there are Junior "B" events at which those skaters can compete.

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