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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But I haven't watched their short programs in a while and don't know how this placement would affect the overall podium. IIRC Baiul was clean in the short. Don't remember the rest.
    Chen was 5th in the SP, but I don't remember what she missed. Baiul was second in the SP, and Bonaly third. So the medals would be identical to your top 3 in the LP.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I agree. My recollection is that everyone assumed Kerrigan (the highest ranking skater returning after 92) would win 93 Worlds pretty easily. She did have a strong SP then totally imploded in the FS. While Bonaly was able to win Europeans, the judges at Worlds so hated her technique flaws and lack of presentation they were never willing to put her on top, regardless of how many jumps she landed. So that left Baiul with a strong clean skate. Even though she was a comparative newcomer, she was so obviously and extraordinarily gifted, I think the judges were happy to give it to her.

    The most significant repercussion of Kerrigan's meltdown from the US POV was that left us with only 2 ladies spots at Lillehammer, meaning a very young Michelle Kwan didn't get to go.
    True. Along with pretty bad skates from Lisa Ervin and a disastrous SP from Tonia Kwiatkowski. Tonya Harding was left off the team that year.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    True. Along with pretty bad skates from Lisa Ervin and a disastrous SP from Tonia Kwiatkowski. Tonya Harding was left off the team that year.
    That's a shame, because she had a really good SP in '93 as well:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3qhB-11UY

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    True. Along with pretty bad skates from Lisa Ervin and a disastrous SP from Tonia Kwiatkowski.
    I was going to add that but couldn't remember what the rule was at that time. There was a while where having any skater on the podium got the country 3 spots.

    I think you meant disastrous qualifying skate from Kwaitkowski. She didn't even make it to the SP. Ervin finished 13th overall.

  5. #85
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    I frankly never remotedly understood the decision to send Kwiatkowski to Worlds over Harding and Bobek when all 3 had comparable long program skates and mistakes at Nationals that year. I could definitely see if Tonia had a good skate and clearly outskated the other two, but all 3 had mistakes and landed only 2 triples each. Tonia at that time had very poor international results, was already a middle aged skater, and was unlikely to achieve even a respectable result at Worlds. Very bizarre decision. It seemed it was the USFSA wanting to send a message to the two bad girls, especialy after all the trouble Bobek had caused at Junior Worlds that year. I could see Ervin I guess as she was the only one to do a personal best in the long at Nationals that year, but her content was limited enough, and she had done poorly in the short, so they could have easily justified keeping her down too.

    I also think in retrospect Tonia could have done alot better had she been more focused on skating in the 92-94 period. When one looks at her skating in the 95-98 period, she could have been very competitive in the years I mentioned, but she sacrificed alot of what could have been her peak years when she was most invested in school. Had she skated at the 93 Nationals like she did at the 96 Nationals (or even 95) for instance, the judges would have had to have given her the National title (or atleast would if they had a conscious or any integrity at all).

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    But I seem to remember '93 Worlds as a mixed bag. Surya Bonaly had the performances of her life (I think she should've won, personally), Chen Lu gave her best performances up to that point, Yuka Sato maybe had a step-out and/or pop in there but was otherwise great, the German skaters Marina Kiehlmann and newcomer Tanja Szewczenko were clean, as was even Karen Preston. But, I think the one skater the judges would've put over Oksana Baiul was Nancy Kerrigan and she was a disaster, only to be out-disastered by Josee Chouinard!
    93 Worlds actually ended up to be a really good ladies event! One of the best ever at that point. Bauil, Bonaly, Chen, to some degree Sato, Preston, Kielllmann (in the LP only), Szewcenko, and Kulovana all had personal best performances/competitions. One could not have forseen such a great event after the 92 debacle, especialy with Yamaguchi and Ito retiring.

    I agree the only skater the judges would have put above Baiul is Kerrigan, especialy seeing Bonaly skate so well with much harder content (and being right behind her after the short) and still not do it, and Chen skate so well and not even come close. Although I think if Josee Chouinard had duplicated her Nationals performance from that year she "might" have had a chance to beat Baiul.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    It seemed it was the USFSA wanting to send a message to the two bad girls, especialy after all the trouble Bobek had caused at Junior Worlds that year.
    Does anybody remember the ordinals? I don't know how close Tonya got to making the World Team, but yes, I think they were tired of giving her the benefit of the doubt. And that's understandable. I mean, she could only manage 2 clean triples?

    When one looks at her skating in the 95-98 period, she could have been very competitive in the years I mentioned, but she sacrificed alot of what could have been her peak years when she was most invested in school.
    Never thought about that--yes, definitely makes sense. Her '96 Nationals skate was really good, but nowadays under the IJS I wonder how much she would've gotten dinged for the jumps. I believe she had a lot of two-footed landings.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree the only skater the judges would have put above Baiul is Kerrigan, especialy seeing Bonaly skate so well with much harder content (and being right behind her after the short) and still not do it, and Chen skate so well and not even come close. Although I think if Josee Chouinard had duplicated her Nationals performance from that year she "might" have had a chance to beat Baiul.
    I wonder what the judges would have been "willing" to do with Tonya at that event? Assuming she skated a clean SP, where would she have ended up in that segment?

    It's also interesting that Kerrigan and Baiul both finished 2nd in qualifying, yet Baiul still managed to win. I wonder how many jumps both landed in the qualifying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Does anybody remember the ordinals? I don't know how close Tonya got to making the World Team, but yes, I think they were tired of giving her the benefit of the doubt.
    Not specifically, but I do know that there was flipflopping in the long program. Basically the ordinals were all mixed up between 2nd and 5th place. And Kerrigan may have gotten some ordinals below 1 and Kwan may have gotten some above 6th.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I frankly never remotedly understood the decision to send Kwiatkowski to Worlds over Harding and Bobek when all 3 had comparable long program skates and mistakes at Nationals that year. I could definitely see if Tonia had a good skate and clearly outskated the other two, but all 3 had mistakes and landed only 2 triples each. Tonia at that time had very poor international results, was already a middle aged skater, and was unlikely to achieve even a respectable result at Worlds. Very bizarre decision. It seemed it was the USFSA wanting to send a message to the two bad girls, especialy after all the trouble Bobek had caused at Junior Worlds that year. I could see Ervin I guess as she was the only one to do a personal best in the long at Nationals that year, but her content was limited enough, and she had done poorly in the short, so they could have easily justified keeping her down too.

    I also think in retrospect Tonia could have done alot better had she been more focused on skating in the 92-94 period. When one looks at her skating in the 95-98 period, she could have been very competitive in the years I mentioned, but she sacrificed alot of what could have been her peak years when she was most invested in school. Had she skated at the 93 Nationals like she did at the 96 Nationals (or even 95) for instance, the judges would have had to have given her the National title (or atleast would if they had a conscious or any integrity at all).

    Choosing Kwiatkowski was the judges way of showing Harding that unless she cleaned up her act, she wouldn't get to go to Worlds now or in the future and like you said, they were also admonishing Bobek

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I wonder what the judges would have been "willing" to do with Tonya at that event? Assuming she skated a clean SP, where would she have ended up in that segment?

    It's also interesting that Kerrigan and Baiul both finished 2nd in qualifying, yet Baiul still managed to win. I wonder how many jumps both landed in the qualifying?
    Re Harding it is hard to say as she didnt have U.S #1 backing by then. Had she done her Nationals SP I would guess them slotting her into 3rd ahead of Bonaly in the SP "maybe", although might have also been placed 4th or 5th. Had she won Nationals with a strong skate (which was possibly since while Nancy was the USFSA princess she bombed the LP) maybe higher than 3rd though.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Not specifically, but I do know that there was flipflopping in the long program.
    OK, now I'm recalling that too. That probably means things were pretty close.

    Basically the ordinals were all mixed up between 2nd and 5th place. And Kerrigan may have gotten some ordinals below 1 and Kwan may have gotten some above 6th.
    The only one besides Kerrigan who I could imagine with first-place ordinals would be Ervin. And as poorly as Nancy skated, that's certainly possible.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Choosing Kwiatkowski was the judges way of showing Harding that unless she cleaned up her act, she wouldn't get to go to Worlds now or in the future...
    Well, it kinda worked, because she did train a lot harder later in the year, but it seems she did a few other things as well.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Re Harding it is hard to say as she didnt have U.S #1 backing by then. Had she done her Nationals SP I would guess them slotting her into 3rd ahead of Bonaly in the SP "maybe", although might have also been placed 4th or 5th. Had she won Nationals with a strong skate (which was possibly since while Nancy was the USFSA princess she bombed the LP) maybe higher than 3rd though.
    That makes sense--I couldn't really see them placing her any lower than 5th with a clean SP, assuming she didn't skate poorly in the qualifying round.

  15. #95
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    I copied down the marks and Kerrigan definitely received only 1st place vote ordinals. The ordinals from 2nd to 5th were all over the place, but every judge had Nancy 1st and by a good margin. So the change in the ranking must be that Lisa Ervin's marks pushed Harding below Kwiatkowski in the LP when she had previously been ahead, through an oridinal flip, but the computer was slow to register it, but once the change was registered it pushed Harding down from 1st to 4th overall (obviously behind Kerrigan once her marks came up, behind Kwiatkowski due to the ordinal flip from Ervin, and behind Ervin once she was 2 spots ahead of Harding in the LP rather than just one).

    As for Kwan she was 8th in the SP and didnt even skate in the final flight so she couldnt have impacted any ordinals at that point.

  16. #96
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    I copied down the marks and Kerrigan definitely received only 1st place vote ordinals. The ordinals from 2nd to 5th were all over the place, but every judge had Nancy 1st and by a good margin. So the change in the ranking must be that Lisa Ervin's marks pushed Harding below Kwiatkowski in the LP when she had previously been ahead, through an oridinal flip, but the computer was slow to register it, but once the change was registered it pushed Harding down from 1st to 4th overall (obviously behind Kerrigan once her marks came up, behind Kwiatkowski due to the ordinal flip from Ervin, and behind Ervin once she was 2 spots ahead of Harding in the LP rather than just one).

    As for Kwan she was 8th in the SP and didnt even skate in the final flight so she couldnt have impacted any ordinals at that point.

  17. #97
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    I wonder what the judges would have been "willing" to do with Tonya at that event?
    It is really hard to do what-ifs with Harding because she was so inconsistent. One year she would work hard, show up well trained and well prepared, and win Nationals and World silver. Other times she seemed not to be as focused on her skating or working as hard, not be as careful about her overall fitness/conditioning, and end up popping, doubling or falling on her jumps. I think maybe she was a bit like Bobek in frittering away much of the early season, then buckling down and working really hard in the weeks leading up to Nationals.

    It did not help that folks were annoyed with her for continuing to smoke in spite of being asthmatic. The image of her using an inhaliner at the end of her program underscored her unwillingness to do what was necessary to be the best she could be. It also did not help that the message the USFS kept sending was that they wanted ice princesses rather than more athletic-style skaters. (I think Midori Ito was a victim of this same mind set. Good thing the Russians did not do this to Slutskaya when she came along.)

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The ordinals from 2nd to 5th were all over the place, but every judge had Nancy 1st and by a good margin.
    Maybe that made her a bit overconfident for Worlds.

    So the change in the ranking must be that Lisa Ervin's marks pushed Harding below Kwiatkowski in the LP when she had previously been ahead, through an oridinal flip, but the computer was slow to register it, but once the change was registered it pushed Harding down from 1st to 4th overall
    Thanks. Do you know what the actual ordinals were for Kwiatkowski and Harding?

    As for Kwan she was 8th in the SP and didnt even skate in the final flight so she couldnt have impacted any ordinals at that point.
    I thought she was 6th?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I think maybe she was a bit like Bobek in frittering away much of the early season, then buckling down and working really hard in the weeks leading up to Nationals.
    I think you're right. I wonder, though, if Tonya was skating well in the practices at '93 Nationals. Does anybody know?

    It did not help that folks were annoyed with her for continuing to smoke in spite of being asthmatic. The image of her using an inhaliner at the end of her program underscored her unwillingness to do what was necessary to be the best she could be.
    Definitely.

    It also did not help that the message the USFS kept sending was that they wanted ice princesses rather than more athletic-style skaters.
    They sent that message loud and clear at 1989 Nationals.

    Good thing the Russians did not do this to Slutskaya when she came along.)
    Yep.

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