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  1. #21
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    Interesting that she switched from a relatively non-competitive skating nation (field wise) to a very competitive nation. I would think she could easily make Euros and Worlds while skating for Belgium.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Interesting that she switched from a relatively non-competitive skating nation (field wise) to a very competitive nation. I would think she could easily make Euros and Worlds while skating for Belgium.
    She was the USA junior champion in 1990, so she was away from US Nationals from 1991-1995. As gkelly noted, it seems she could not get her BEL eligibility to participate in the Olympics. She competed in three world championships for Belgium 1992-1994, but she did not attend either the 1992 or 1994 Olympics. I agree that she would have been a credit to the European ladies field in the 1990s (and the Worlds for that matter). There maybe were other factors--an injury as gkelly said--that caused her to leave the BEL federation.

    She was a pretty skater, and I admire her for graduating from University of Minnesota at age 19.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 03-08-2013 at 04:51 AM.

  3. #23
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    Except it's not like she would qualify for the Olympics in 1998 while skating for the US. But if she stayed for Belgium at least she could skate at Worlds / Euros. I am not sure how injury could affect which federation to represent, but perhaps funding would.

  4. #24
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    Sato's programme was fantastic. That FW Shame about the combo - but considering others mistakes, she got screwed

  5. #25
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    I stopped after the top 7, where the missing video was.

    There were no formal "base values" then, but a lot of judges tended to mark the SP with a mental starting technical mark based on planned content, from which they took deductions or rewarded excellence. In that era, the judges expected ladies with an eye on the podium to be doing the 3Z-2T combination. By using an easier combination, Preston and Hubert are basically telling the judges they know they are not as good as the top competitors, and the judges will start them at a lower level.

    Kristi Y would have been first on my card. She skated with ease and polish. IMO Chen Lu was a clear second.

    After that we had two otherwise good skates each with a jump problem. Kerrigan doubled the Lutz and 2T was UR with both hands down (.2 or .4 deduction). Chouinard has a slight UR and step out on the 2 flip (.2 deduction). I think Kerrigan's much bigger jump problem should have put her behind Chouinard, maybe even Preston.

    Then we have a clean but totally pedestrian skate from Preston with no lutz (3F-2T and 2Lo) and a clean but sloppy and totally juniorish skate from Hubert, also with no lutz (3 Lo-2T and 2F) and a spin that traveled pretty badly. I would have Preston in front of Hubert.

    The real dilemma comes over where to place Harding. She popped her lutz and omitted the back of the combo, which was a mandatory .5 deduction under the 1992 scoring system. Still, her overall skating skills were much superior, her spins stronger. She starts with a higher technical base value so the .5 deduction wouldn't leave her technical mark that far behind Preston & Hubert and she should have a distinctly higher presentation mark than Hubert who didn't hold her positions at all and looked like what she was - a skater just up from juniors.

    So, my ranking would have been
    1-Kristi
    2-Lu Chen
    3-Josee Chouinard
    4-Nancy Kerrigan
    5-Karen Preston
    6-Tonya Harding
    7-Laetitia Hubert
    Last edited by Susan M; 03-08-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Did anyone watch Sandra Bezic's educational piece following the Nancy Kerrigan SP clip? It's at 7:22. Sandra uses clips of Surya's jumps to illustrate the technical errors a skater can make. I would be so offended at Canadian television if I were Surya!
    It's not so offending...It's to show the different kind of landings, and she uses Surya for good and bad examples. And she uses another skater for the worst : fall ! Although I'm sure she could have found a fall by Surya, lol

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Except it's not like she would qualify for the Olympics in 1998 while skating for the US. But if she stayed for Belgium at least she could skate at Worlds / Euros. I am not sure how injury could affect which federation to represent, but perhaps funding would.
    She was 7th in the World in 1992, and won the silver at Skate Canada in 1992 ahead of Josee Chouinard and Tonya Harding (Harding at the time was the #2 U.S skater and a regular at World and Olympic events for them). Given the U.S women seemed to be going into a weak spell, her standing in the World at that point, and her youth, it would have made sense to think she could made the 98 Olympic team in the future at the time. Little did she know her own skating was going to fall way off rather than improve and master improve all the triples, and the U.S women were about to take off again with the Kwan steamroller leading the way.

  8. #28
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    Claeys in 92 and 93 btw was very easily beating someone like Tonia Kwiatkowski in international competition, someone who made the 96 and 98 World teams (and would have in 97 without a meltdown, and arguably should have in 95). Tonia is much older than Claeys. Yet Tonia got alot better after 92-93, while the much younger Claeys inexplicably got alot worse. There was no reason she shouldnt have thought at that point she could make future U.S teams though.

  9. #29

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    Claeys never had a triple lutz or flip, as far as I know. By 1993 it was starting to be important to have those jumps if one wanted top-10 finish at Worlds, and by 1995 it was pretty much required.

    I happened to attend 1997 Upper Great Lakes, which she won with two pretty clean programs, I think 4 triples including a 3loop in the freeskate. Based on how Nationals went that year, I think if she had competed with the exact same performances as at UGL, she could have been 6th in each program and 7th overall. But apparently she didn't have a good day at sectionals that year and didn't make to Nashville.

  10. #30
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    Claeys did have a triple flip. I think she only competed it once or twice, though -- perhaps in 1993? I heard she had it back in 1999 or 2000, and she attempted triple toe - triple toe and a double flip (presumably meant to be a triple?) in the short program at Easterns.

  11. #31

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    I think it was gkelly who turned me on to her Coppelia LP. That is one of my all time fave programs! I especially love the sequence at the end with the 3 spread eagles into 2a.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Claeys never had a triple lutz or flip, as far as I know. By 1993 it was starting to be important to have those jumps if one wanted top-10 finish at Worlds, and by 1995 it was pretty much required.

    I happened to attend 1997 Upper Great Lakes, which she won with two pretty clean programs, I think 4 triples including a 3loop in the freeskate. Based on how Nationals went that year, I think if she had competed with the exact same performances as at UGL, she could have been 6th in each program and 7th overall. But apparently she didn't have a good day at sectionals that year and didn't make to Nashville.
    Well Claeys was only a teenager in 92 and 93. I think it would have been assumed she could master the triple lutz at some point then, or atleast she probably thought that. As I said why would one assume that old Tonia Kwiatkowski could improve so much (she was a poorer skater than Claeys in 92 and 93, even if she sometimes landed a triple lutz) and young teenage Claeys could not. Had she done most of her performances from 1992 she would have finished 2nd at the 93 U.S Nationals. There was no reason for her to think at that point she couldnt be competitive at U.S Nationals in the future.

  13. #33
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    Harding wasn't anywhere in the short although it was a pretty good program for her. I would have had Sato higher if she didn't also bobble the flying sit. I agree that Hubert's elements were wild and unrefined but her speed gets some credit. Preston vs Chouinard is much closer than I think anyone thinks. Scratchy combo for both and all other elements very similar. Josee has more speed and personality but tech is the tie breaker in the short and Josee totally botched the 2 flip. I'd put Kerrigan as high as I am because the precision in everything she does is so appealing.


    Yamaguchi, Chen, Preston, Chouinard, Kerrigan, Hubert, Sato

  14. #34
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    Nancy Kerrigan was grossly held up in this competition in both the SP and the LP. One of the worst displays of reputation judging ever!

  15. #35
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    I think one thing people need to remember about Kerrigan is back then she was considered by èxperts as a very artistic skater. Now it seems many are baffled by that (or even completely unaware) and just dont get it. Her skating definitely didnt stand the test of time that well. However that was the general perception at the time, and it is why she could get away with doing no more or less technically than her peers, and win many medals in the early 90s with mistake filled performances jump wise.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I think one thing people need to remember about Kerrigan is back then she was considered by èxperts as a very artistic skater. Now it seems many are baffled by that (or even completely unaware) and just dont get it. Her skating definitely didnt stand the test of time that well. However that was the general perception at the time, and it is why she could get away with doing no more or less technically than her peers, and win many medals in the early 90s with mistake filled performances jump wise.
    Yes, perception can count for a lot. I just watched Nancy's program. The thing about Nancy is that she was a "put together" skater. She was quite attractive (which no doubt helped her win a lot of "free" points), and she usually wore elegant costumes. In the SP here, I think the color of her dress was very effective. Even beyond all the trappings, she did have a rather smooth, mature style. But overall, she was pretty boring IMO. There wasn't anything really objectionable about her skating, but nothing truly remarkable about it either. When she was on, her performances were workmanlike; and when she wasn't...well, at least one could admire perhaps her hair and her dresses.

    I think Tonya was actually a lot more musical than both Nancy and Kristi. Tonya wasn't that flexible, so her skating could be a bit jarring at times, but she more than made up for that in other ways--she just had power and bold movements that you rarely saw in female skaters. Whether you loved her or hated her, Tonya definitely wasn't boring.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I think one thing people need to remember about Kerrigan is back then she was considered by èxperts as a very artistic skater. Now it seems many are baffled by that (or even completely unaware) and just dont get it. Her skating definitely didnt stand the test of time that well. However that was the general perception at the time, and it is why she could get away with doing no more or less technically than her peers, and win many medals in the early 90s with mistake filled performances jump wise.
    Kerrigan was an ice princess w/ an image that the USFSA loved. So, I think this led to her heavy promotion by the USFSA over say, the technically talented yet troublesome Harding. Then, when you consider that the '89 - '92 quadrennial morphed into a competition among 3 Americans v. Midori Ito, who were all ranked way ahead of no. 5 onward ( ex - an earlier, even less refined Surya Bonaly, Josee Chouinard and Yuka Sato who both at the time I think couldn't do a jump harder than a 3loop, newcomer Chen Lu who at the time showed promised but didn't have cred or a federation with any real clout, a very very uneven no. 2 French gal - Laetitia Hubert, the disappearance of quality Soviet and GDR skaters during the quadrennial, Fassi pupils Jill Trenary and Joanne Conway disappearing from the ranks of elite skaters for various reasons, etc., ad nauseum).

    I think all of the above led to Kerrigan getting medals by default with some pretty meh performances.

  18. #38

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    It was definitely a transitional period, with older skaters having trained when "well rounded" meant strong school figures and maybe three triples and the emerging contenders focused more on including a full set of triples. Also coherent music and choreography was starting to become more the norm.

  19. #39

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    In defense of judges who voted for Kerrigan, her lack of musicality and poor quality of movement were more than balanced out by her sound jumping technique and relatively 'packed' programs. She seemed to do lots of transitions and steps compared to other skaters who were attempting similar jumps.

    If she ever hit, her technical difficultly would have been right at the top as soon as Ito and Yama left. I think Nancy got rewarded a bit for what she could do someday. She had a beautiful 3z and at some point starting showing the 3t3t.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Kerrigan was an ice princess w/ an image that the USFSA loved. So, I think this led to her heavy promotion by the USFSA over say, the technically talented yet troublesome Harding. Then, when you consider that the '89 - '92 quadrennial morphed into a competition among 3 Americans v. Midori Ito, who were all ranked way ahead of no. 5 onward ( ex - an earlier, even less refined Surya Bonaly, Josee Chouinard and Yuka Sato who both at the time I think couldn't do a jump harder than a 3loop, newcomer Chen Lu who at the time showed promised but didn't have cred or a federation with any real clout, a very very uneven no. 2 French gal - Laetitia Hubert, the disappearance of quality Soviet and GDR skaters during the quadrennial, Fassi pupils Jill Trenary and Joanne Conway disappearing from the ranks of elite skaters for various reasons, etc., ad nauseum).

    I think all of the above led to Kerrigan getting medals by default with some pretty meh performances.
    I think it was the "discovery" of a skater who was long, pretty, and somewhat elegant who could land 3Lz and 3T-3T and do them with power that got her elevated in the seeding system in 1991. She was a contrast with Ito and also Harding, which is what the judges found positive at that time. In subjective sports, no matter how much they pretend now to quantify, everything depends on context, and with that cast of characters and the judging emphases of that time on triple jumps, Nancy was surprising (not boring). You really know your history. Excellent post.

    I don't know why JudgeJudy repeats all of this Nancy-bashing as if it has been written into scripture. Nancy was evidently lazy. She had so much talent--jumping and otherwise--but her programs looked like she was only partially prepared from 1991-1993. I don't think she did full run throughs enough. You can see in 1994 that she worked harder than ever and showed up ready for business. There were still moments in 1994 when she let some things drop that seemed unnecessary, and I think if you keep that in mind (that she was not the best skater mentally or discipline-wise) you will see that she had the potential to beat everyone in 1994.

    She is a little like Gracie Gold in the sense that both were/are overblown because of the possession of athletic jumping without physically looking the part of the "athlete." Nancy at least attempted to be dramatic, which was effective with audiences.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 03-10-2013 at 05:03 AM.

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