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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    K/S were given that deduction at NHK in 2009 for her shoulder dislocation and needing time to pop it back in and seeing if they can continue. They were charged one for the fall and two for Interuption in excess.
    I just can't see how these two phrases can go together.

  2. #142
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    Yeah, athletes are a different breed.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  3. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    I just can't see how these two phrases can go together.
    It is pretty gross but she's a trooper. The deduction may be the reason she kept going when it happened at Euros and Olympics; those two points can be the difference between medals and no medals.

  4. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Under the present rule, skaters are not allowed to repeat any portion of the program already skated. Elements were repeated back when the rule called for a total restart, but now the skaters are supposed to pick up at the point of the interruption. I think folks are confused on this point because of the recent V-M incident when the official allowed then to go well back into their music to do the lift they had skated through. The officials probably erred in that case. (The BBC commentator thought so, anyway.)

    I don't know if you noticed, but both Shibutanis and V+M were getting into hold for the lift and then stopped, so one may argue that they actually 'repeated' the lift. I know that they didn't actually perform the lift but they were already starting the element, they did not stop just when standing upright doing transitions. (In fact, the first attempt of the lift from Shibutanis were a different hold that the successful attempt).

  5. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    The other thing is: all the people on this thread who skate and compete keep telling you guys who don't skate and compete that stopping your program is NOT an advantage. But all you can see is "Tessa was breathing heavy when she stopped and wasn't when they restarted." That doesn't make stopping an advantage. Skaters are always breathing heavy after their programs. Having to get your heart rate back down again so you can restart with any degree of control in a very short period of time is actually hard and adds to the stress of stopping. It's another thing that might not work in your favor if you decide "hey, this is a great strategy. I'm going to do this in all my competitions." What if you go to restart your program and you are still huffing a bit and your pulse is still racing. It's really hard to start a program in that state. (I know this from experience.)
    Another overgeneralisation. I skate, competed and I do believe it is an advantage.

    You also say that you haven't read a single interview where other skaters at these three competitions complained about what happened and said the rules have to change. Well, there was an interview by some Russian (don't remember who exactly it was, possibly Shabalin?) He was commenting on the stop Shibutanis made and questioning why they were allowed to repeat the lift. So not all skaters (or ex skaters) believe the rules are fair.

  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post

    Cycling is off topic here, but I think this raises the concept of what is not done because it is punished rule vs what is not done by etiquette because it is not of the noblest sporting notions. Clearly, the old restart rule relied on skaters having noble sporting ethics, and they had to change it when win-at-all costs led to folks abusing the rule. Clearly, three different dance teams having invisible ailments in the middle of free dances in the same year suggests the time has come to consider whether the generosity of the current rule also relies too much on the sporting ethic and needs to be less forgiving.
    This!

  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by chantilly View Post
    I watched the Virtue and Moir skate quite a few times in replay. And the lift wasn't aborted. It wasn't even begun as her feet didn't leave the ice.
    They got into position but were not able to start the lift. They skated through it. The caller would not have called it a lift of course, but they would not have earned any points either.

    In a designated official practice before the competition, the couples skate all of their elements so that the technical panel can take notes and the judges can know what to expect. So the panel cannot ignore that a lift was missed. Actually they can and they have, but it wouldn't serve fairness at a close competition.


    I also don't think a distinction should be made regarding equipment/costume vs injury. It is the athlete's bad luck either way and they need to accept responsibility for it regardless.
    IMO it is best for such rules to reflect what would be considered fair by skaters, coaches and the knowledgeable public. After all, the aim of all these judging rules is fairness. I believe anyone would understand that if a skater misses an element because he feels a cramp coming, he cannot be given a second chance - it's the same in all sports. Otherwise it would not be fair to the significant number of athletes who compete with minor of major injuries or illness and perform their elements through pain. What's going on in an athlete's body at a particular moment is very difficult to assess and quantify.

    OTOH, if a skater's boot laces are undone, most people would find it shocking not to give him a chance to tie them and continue from where he stopped. There is no disputing the fact that he could not have continued with his laces undone.

  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    I just can't see how these two phrases can go together.
    Neither can I! If dislocated a shoulder I'd be lying prostate on the ice screaming and crying like a baby!

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Yeah, athletes are a different breed.
    They sure are! I remember when gymnast Elise Ray said she felt her shoulder pop out during her Team FX at the 2000 Olympics - I thought her Olympics were over right there!
    Congrats to my ♥Baroque Rock Princess Adelina♥Meryl&Charlie♥Tatiana&Maxim♥!Team ♥Mirai♥Adam♥Julia♥

  9. #149
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    Lol I love the way you express yourself, Sasha'sSpins. And I too would honestly be on the ground crying with you.

    Seriously though these athletes are on another level, and they'd have to be, considering their elite status, they've earned it and truly paid wilth blood, sweat, tears (btw does Yuko Kavaguti ever cry??? she's like a bionic woman! even Eldredge lay prone on the ice gritting his teeth when he popped his shoulder back in place).

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Sports can't be judged on the same level because they are so different. Missing a grip of the bar and falling or falling off a beam is far more prevalent in each competition than a skater stopping program. If a gymnast falls off the beam or bars, they do not ask them to leave the competition they are given a deduction just like skaters get when they fall and get to finish the routine if they can. The ISU must not see it being such a big deal and I doubt skaters will keep doing it to be dishonest. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
    If a gymnast falls off an apparatus, they must climb back on and resume from where they left off within a certain time frame or be penalized.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    In gymnastic they compete one after the other, and they still can't take a break in the middle of their routine. I would give allowances for boot or blade problems (broken blade, laces undone etc) but not for injuries. In any other sport, if you are injured you don't compete. If you do compete, that's at your own risk and if you can't finish, you withdraw. To let someone have a break in the middle is already 'softer' option than in other sports, so I would at least severely penalise it. But I think the rule should actually be that if you can't finish, you withdraw.
    THIS^^

  12. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    In gymnastic they compete one after the other, and they still can't take a break in the middle of their routine. I would give allowances for boot or blade problems (broken blade, laces undone etc) but not for injuries. In any other sport, if you are injured you don't compete. If you do compete, that's at your own risk and if you can't finish, you withdraw. To let someone have a break in the middle is already 'softer' option than in other sports, so I would at least severely penalise it. But I think the rule should actually be that if you can't finish, you withdraw.
    An Australian Ladies title was won with a break of at least 6 minutes (most likely more)! This was with the new rule in place. Never should have happened, it was sad for all the skaters behind this one. If you are competing, compete - that is why it is called acompetition, not a practice session. You need to let competitors perform with what they have durning thier time on the ice and judges need to judge what they see for those few minutes on the ice.

  13. #153
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    Re comparing one sport to another, Some of rules for another sport might work quite well for skating too and vice-versa.

    Someone above said that at the designated official practice, skaters skate through all their elements for the benefit of the tech caller and the judges. Is that really true? Seems I recall cases where a skater did not even appear at their designated official practice.
    I thought the judges etc were provide in writing what the skater planned, but he is not penalized per se if he changes his program.
    Last edited by Iceman; 03-04-2013 at 01:16 PM.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    As I noted earlier - there was one fairly recently (2009-10? Maybe a bit later). The ISU did away with it.

    Some people have written that if there is an unsafe situation skaters should be allowed to continue after a break. What if the unsafe situation leads to a skater being hurt and needing a break? IIRC, Barbara Fusar-Poli said that there were lots of Swarovski crystals on the ice during the OD in the 2006 Olympics. Though she did not attribute their fall to this, what if someone had tripped over those and hurt themselves? Should that team have been penalized? I just don't see how the ISU can start institute a selective policy. Either every stop leads to a deduction, like a few years back, or none do. Or I wouldn't put it past some skaters to find a "legitimate" reason if they stop because they are hurt.
    I think the easy and fair way to decide when a penalty is given or not would be: if there is physical evidence of a reason to stop, eg crystals or other debris on the ice, broken or untied boot lace/broken skate blade or any other physical danger that can be seen, fixed and then the skate continues, would be allowed. Stopping because the skater is sick, injured or just tired should be grounds for withdrawal or severely penalized. This is a sport, not an exhibition and IMO the skaters should be trained to finish the program, if they want to risk competing with an injury then they should be willing to accept the possible consequences if they have to stop in the middle. If they are injured during the program, to the point of having to stop skating, they should be made to withdraw. To continue skating with a known injury incurred during the performance is dangerous to the skater or team and shouldn't be allowed, if they stop. Allowing skaters to stop in the way that we have seen lately, is unfair to the other competitors and should not be allowed in the future.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    so one may argue that they actually 'repeated' the lift. I know that they didn't actually perform the lift but they were already starting the element, they did not stop just when standing upright doing transitions.
    Yep, it's like when someone slips off the outside edge going into an axel- they didn't do any part of the jump, but this is almost always called as an axel attempt, so I know skaters have Oda-ed themselves when they add in another axel later (thinking 'I didn't do an axel'), so then the failed "attempt" gets no credit, and the replacement gets no credit.

    They didn't attempt the jump (or in dance's case the lift) but they did enough of the preperation for it, that judges knew what they were going for and it counts as an attempt.

  16. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I don't know if you noticed, but both Shibutanis and V+M were getting into hold for the lift and then stopped, so one may argue that they actually 'repeated' the lift. I know that they didn't actually perform the lift but they were already starting the element, they did not stop just when standing upright doing transitions. (In fact, the first attempt of the lift from Shibutanis were a different hold that the successful attempt).
    What do you mean, "different hold?" Could there have been an error in set-up? That's not good.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conga View Post
    What do you mean, "different hold?" Could there have been an error in set-up? That's not good.
    Watching other versions of the program- I don't think they set up incorrectly the first time. I think they did it differently the second time to not aggrevate the muscle spasms again.

    While I again think they shouldn't be allowed to stop, I do think they stopped due to actual muscle spasms and not a program error hoping for a retry.

  18. #158

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    Stopping a program should incur a 1.0 penalty across the board, with the narrow exception of things completely out of the skater's control, such as power outages, fire alarms, streakers, etc. Singles and pair skaters should lose the second half bonus on any skills performed after a break. The program should be re-started at the point the music was stopped. Spend 30 seconds wandering aimlessly around the ice before consulting the referee? You just lost any elements in that portion of the program. Go talk to your coach before going to the referee? You just lost that portion of your program. Hear the referee's whistle because your boot strap came undone? The music should be stopped immediately upon the referee blowing the whistle, and hence, this skater gets to skate his/her entire program in two pieces. But if the skater initiates the stop, the the amount of time it takes to get to the referee is time the skater shouldn't get back. He can use the three minutes to decide is the remaining portion of the program needs to be changed/rearranged. The judges should lower the PCS marks accordingly, depending on how much of the program was not performed (but even if they don't, these other rule changes would ensure that there is a penalty for stopping a program).

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Another overgeneralisation. I skate, competed and I do believe it is an advantage.
    That makes your remarks that much more idiotic then.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    He was commenting on the stop Shibutanis made and questioning why they were allowed to repeat the lift. So not all skaters (or ex skaters) believe the rules are fair.
    He wan't questioning whether or not they could continue though. He was saying they should have continued after the lift. And I agree with that. So should V/M. They both missed the lift and should have had to restart the program after the point where the lift would have occurred.

    And, if they had done so, there whould have been a BIG penalty in their marks naturally and I doubt this discussion would be happening. It's the fact that they got to do all their planned elements that made it seem like there was no penalty that then caused people to be up in arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    Someone above said that at the designated official practice, skaters skate through all their elements for the benefit of the tech caller and the judges. Is that really true? Seems I recall cases where a skater did not even appear at their designated official practice.
    I thought the judges etc were provide in writing what the skater planned, but he is not penalized per se if he changes his program.
    You are correct. There is no requirement to even show up at the official practices and you do not have to do your exact program at them. The technical panel does not sit there marking off the elements you skate during the practice either. (They may or may not attend.)

    You do turn in your list of planned elements but you are allowed to skate a program that does not match those elements with no penalty as you pointed out. The list is just to make life easier as most of the time most skaters skate most of what they planned and even if they change things up they still do some sort of element in the place they said they'd do something. (So maybe they'll do 2X instead of 3F but they still do a jump.)
    Last edited by MacMadame; 03-04-2013 at 04:34 PM.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  20. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Yep, it's like when someone slips off the outside edge going into an axel- they didn't do any part of the jump, but this is almost always called as an axel attempt, so I know skaters have Oda-ed themselves when they add in another axel later (thinking 'I didn't do an axel'), so then the failed "attempt" gets no credit, and the replacement gets no credit.

    They didn't attempt the jump (or in dance's case the lift) but they did enough of the preperation for it, that judges knew what they were going for and it counts as an attempt.
    Exactly!!! Mao Asada also did not get a second chance when she had the bad fall on her preparation edge for 3A a few years ago at worlds. She just got up and continued with the program. And she was not able to fit in any extra triple axel, because this one already counted as an attempt. Although she was only on the preparation edge, she did not jump yet!

    With the current rules, however, Mao should be advised by her coaches that she should skate to the referee because she has a pain her her leg and stomach (the fall definitely looked painful, there is no doubt about that!!!), she would get a break, refreshment and second attempt of the triple axel because she hasn't actually performed the element so the first attempt does not count. (Pity the fall would count though. Any advice on how to delete the fall? Or will she have to do with refreshment, break and second attempt on the element?)
    Last edited by hanca; 03-04-2013 at 04:47 PM.

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