Should a break in a program be severely penalized?

[rainbowkisses]

There have been a number of instances recently in which competitors have been stopping part way through a program for a variety of medical reasons. They have then been able to resume the program, without penalties/deductions. Examples include Virtue & Moir at 2013 4CC, the Shibutani's at the 2012 Rostelecom Cup, and now Papadakis & Cizeron at 2013 World Juniors. Whilst it is unfortunate that those concerned have suffered injury, to allow them to resume the program without penalty/deduction is unfair to the other competitors. Tired competitors make mistakes. It is essential that everybody is judged on a level playing field, and you only get a level playing field if all competitors complete their programs without a break (i.e. incurring the same level of physical and mental attrition during a performance). Those that are allowed a break part way through their program, benefit from the fact that they are able to recuperate, and even take on food and liquid refreshments. In my view, therefore, those that stop part way through a program, for whatever reason, should either have to withdraw or be severely penalized with obligatory deductions being imposed. Moreover, a system under which no penalties are imposed is open to abuse, with injuries being feigned. I don't for a minute believed that that has ever happened so far, but it certainly becomes a potential possibility in the future the more this happens.

lmao pls
this is figure skating not soccer
and even if you dont get a deduction, stopping still affects your scores.
if the judges know you are injured they will scrutinize your skating skills more

in addition, dance is different than pairs/singles (no jumps etc.) so the rules seem fair
i think there are more problems in fs rn than dancers stopping in the middle of a program then being allowed to continue

[euterpe]

IMO, a break due to a momentary 'injury' such as V/M's and Alex Shibutani's (cramps) should be penalized with -1 for one minute, -2 two minutes, and -3 for three; after the 3 minutes are up, the skater/team should be withdrawn. If the skater/team starts to do an element and then stops, that element should not be repeated once the program is resumed.

In the case of P/C, where she was already injured before they took the ice, stopping should constitute withdrawal. If a skater/team is already injured and they choose to skate, there is the possibility of making the injury worse. So if the injury is too painful to continue, the skater/team should not be permitted to stop and rest, and then resume.

If the stop is not due to an injury but to some other event, such as equipment or costume malfunction, junk on the ice, music or power problem, there should be no penalty.

[PrincessLeppard]

A one point penalty seems lame. It needs to be much more than that.

[MacMadame]

A one point penalty seems lame. It needs to be much more than that.

Really? You're marking it like a fall and I'm assuming the PCS are also impacted and there might be a missed element as well. That would all add up.

[euterpe]

Obviously, there would be impact on the PCS score for a stop as well as a -1 for one minute. It seems reasonable to make the penalty higher the longer the program is in hiatus---skaters would think twice about taking long 'rest' breaks if there was a down side.

[lauravvv]

A one point penalty seems lame. It needs to be much more than that.

Probably a bit more than that, but not much more. Otherwise, it could lead to situations where a lower level skater/team that also did their technical elements at a considerably lower level could win over a team that still did their elements much better. Yes, on the one hand, it might be physically easier to skaters who had an interruption to perform the rest of their elements. On the other hand, they are very likely to be quite shaken because of such an abrupt interruption, and, therefore, unable to concentrate on their elements quite as well as they would have without that stop - or, quite the opposite, it might result in concentrating too hard and skating too carefully. That could make it difficult to skate the rest of the program to the best of their ability. So, I don't believe that there really is such an advantage as people are saying. The effect it has on skater's PCS was already mentioned - there is no way how it wouldn't influence the judges view of the performance, even if there are no any specific rules demanding a detraction from PCS.

[gkelly]

Obviously, there would be impact on the PCS score for a stop as well as a -1 for one minute. It seems reasonable to make the penalty higher the longer the program is in hiatus---skaters would think twice about taking long 'rest' breaks if there was a down side.

The problem is that the length of the interruption is not necessarily under the skater's control.

It might be unclear exactly when the skater stopped. E.g., if the music is still playing and they're still trying to skate to it despite being unable, at that exact moment to execute the choreography as planned. Has the program already stopped? Or are they still trying to continue and the stop doesn't officially occur until they clearly stop trying and make their way to the referee? (Or when the music stops if the ref realizes the skater is unable to go on at that moment)

The discussion with the referee and maybe the coach or a medical professional to decide whether to withdraw or resume could take varied amount of time that may have more to do with where people are located than with the skater choosing how much time to wait. Should a skater who gets a cut be penalized more if the nearest bandaid is 2 minutes away than if it's 1 minute away?

Then if they decide to continue, the amount of time it takes to recue the music to the correct spot canalso vary for reasons that have more to do with the nature of the equipment being used or the sharpness of the music person or how easy it is for the ref to communicate with the music person -- the skater is ready to resume, but the music isn't ready -- should the skater be penalized more? Or does the deduction clock stop ticking as soon as the skater indicates s/he's ready to restart, even if it takes another minute or two before they actually start and so in effect they get that much longer to catch their breath?

I do think that stops for injury that involve stopping the music need to be penalized officially. If the skater just kind of wanders on the ice for several or many seconds while the music is playing and then resumes without having abandoned the ice, then that would be penalized in PCS, so stopping completely and starting again shouldn't be treated more leniently.

And certain problems, whether with the skater's body or with the equipment, just can't be solved quickly, so after a certain amount of time -- currently 3 minutes? -- if they can't be ready to resume, then they have to withdraw.

But if there's a problem with the venue that takes longer to resolve, then the whole competition stops for however long it takes to fix, and even if it's hours later they'll resume with that skater, at the beginning of the program. After a certain amount of time everyone who had already warmed up but not competed yet would get another warmup.

[julieann]

Sorry but if you sustain an injury during your program to the point that you need to stop and regroup, then you shouldn't be allowed to continue. No excuses. Got a cramp? Better luck next time. Here's the exit, let me hand you your skate guards.

Spoken like a true NON-athlete!

A skater who happens to fall on their wrist wrong after a jump needs time to see if it's broken for the safety of the skater. Certain things should be penalized. Costume malfunction is much different than an injury and the skater’s health is first and foremost. If too big of a penalty is made, skaters will be reluctant to even stop and that is NOT GOOD!

Mandatory penalties should be enforced within reason to be fair to the skaters who didn't have to stop and after watching skating forever, it's hardly an epidemic.

[Ziggy]

The most important thing for me is that the skaters should resume at the point where they stopped.

Situations like Virtue/Moir being allowed to resume skating from the point before they stopped and repeat a lift that failed to go up the first time should never ever be allowed to happen.

[MacMadame]

after watching skating forever, it's hardly an epidemic.

I don't know. We've had THREE of these incidents in one season in ISU events alone. Isn't that as many as we've had in the past decade or two?

[Ziggy]

I wonder why the ISU has decided to remove the penalty in the first place.

I guess they did so after some situations where you could feel it was unfairly applied.

Like Duhamel's partner cutting his hand.

Couldn't they have made some distinction though between various situations and consider each one separately? Or is that difficult to pin down and could potentially open up protests/lawsuits?

[Louis]

I mostly agree with Tracy Wilson, except I'd allow skaters to stop and resume as long as their music is still playing. If you need time to fix your dress, tie your skate, or check if your wrist is broken, that's fine, but your music keeps playing for the 5 or 30 or 60 seconds it takes you to do what you need to. You resume when you're able and you lose anything between.

Wasn't there a situation at Russian Nationals - I want to say it was 1998 - where Shishkova and Naumov tried to stop their program and got told no by the referee?

[julieann]

I don't know. We've had THREE of these incidents in one season in ISU events alone. Isn't that as many as we've had in the past decade or two?

Three? There have been well over 1500 programs skated this season alone between juniors and seniors at ISU events; things happen, the ISU will change if they see it's habit forming among too many skaters.

[MacMadame]

But in the past three years there have been ZERO. Suddenly in 1 season there are 3 and two are at Championship events and involved eventual medal winners.

[Zemgirl]

^
Are we counting only injuries or equipment issues, too? Because I can think of two skaters who had to stop with skate issues two seasons ago - Mark Ladwig at 2011 4CC and Daisuke Takahashi at 2011 Worlds. I don't think it's somehow meaningful that both were at ISU Championships in the same season, and I don't think it's more meaningful that three dance teams stopped this season to care for cramps/injuries - random probability, more likely.

I don't think an injury/emergency stop should get a penalty, but I don't think the element that was aborted should be allowed to be repeated.

I recall a singles skater (maybe a Fin?) crumpling into the boards after sliding on a fall. She was given an amount of time to get of the ice and regroup, and I think she started skating again. She was obviously hurt, as the rest of her program wasn't fabulous.

It sounds like Candice Didier at 2009 Worlds.

Definitely the element that was aborted should not be done again.

[Vash01]

In baseball a pinch runner can replace anyone - an injured player, a slow player, a guy who got hit by a pitch, broke his finger sliding into a base, whatever - but the original player can't go back into the game. OTOH, the game is sometimes stopped if someone is hurt, and then continues as it was (or, if the player can't continue, someone else may come in and take over the at bat). In football/soccer, the clock continues running but the game goes into extra time at the end. Some team sports have timeouts, and I think some individual ones too. So obviously different sports handle it in different ways.


As I noted earlier - there was one fairly recently (2009-10? Maybe a bit later). The ISU did away with it.

Some people have written that if there is an unsafe situation skaters should be allowed to continue after a break. What if the unsafe situation leads to a skater being hurt and needing a break? IIRC, Barbara Fusar-Poli said that there were lots of Swarovski crystals on the ice during the OD in the 2006 Olympics. Though she did not attribute their fall to this, what if someone had tripped over those and hurt themselves? Should that team have been penalized? I just don't see how the ISU can start institute a selective policy. Either every stop leads to a deduction, like a few years back, or none do. Or I wouldn't put it past some skaters to find a "legitimate" reason if they stop because they are hurt.

In the NFL, if a player is injured, there is a time out that is not charged to his team. However, even if the player walks back to the sidelines, he is not allowed to get int he very next play. He has to wait for at least one play.

You are right that different sports have different rules. However, if a rule creates a potential for cheating, it must be changed. If there is an object on the ice that could create danger for a skater, it is very clearly visible, so the skater should not be penalized for it. However, an injury or sickness cannot always proven to be real, and it creates an unfair competition. A deduction is fair for a break in the program for most reasons, including equipment issues, costume issues, and stopping the music, because there is a potential for cheating in it (remember Tonya's shoelaces in the 1994 Olympics?). The exceptions need to be clearly stated in the rules. In the current form, there is a risk of an unfair competition.

[Vagabond]

There have been a number of instances recently in which competitors have been stopping part way through a program for a variety of medical reasons. They have then been able to resume the program, without penalties/deductions. Examples include Virtue & Moir at 2013 4CC

Every article I have read says that Tessa Virtue had a "cramp." Does a cramp amount to a "medical reason" for stopping skating? I am not sure that it does.

Here is an extract from a National Insitutes of Health abstract of an article on the subject:

Muscle cramp is a common, painful, physiological disturbance of skeletal muscle. Many athletes are regularly frustrated by exercise-induced muscle cramp yet the pathogenesis remains speculative with little scientific research on the subject. This has resulted in a perpetuation of myths as to the cause and treatment of it. There is a need for scientifically based protocols for the management of athletes who suffer exercise-related muscle cramp. . . . Disturbance in the activity of . . . receptors may occur through faulty posture, shortened muscle length, intense exercise and exercise to fatigue, resulting in increased motor neuron activity and motor unit recruitment. The relaxation phase of muscle contraction is prolonged in a fatigued muscle, raising the likelihood of fused summation of action potentials if motor neuron activity delivers a sustained high firing frequency. Treatment of cramp is directed at reducing muscle spindle and motor neuron activity by reflex inhibition and afferent stimulation. There are no proven strategies for the prevention of exercise-induced muscle cramp but regular muscle stretching using post-isometric relaxation techniques, correction of muscle balance and posture, adequate conditioning for the activity, mental preparation for competition and avoiding provocative drugs may be beneficial. Other strategies such as incorporating plyometrics or eccentric muscle strengthening into training programmes, maintaining adequate carbohydrate reserves during competition or treating myofascial trigger points are speculative and require investigation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8...?dopt=Abstract

I think at least as reasonable an argument can be made that a skater should not be able to restart after stopping because of a cramp as it can be for a skater who stops after experiencing a problem with his equipment or costume. If, for example, a skater is responsible for making sure his laces are tied, should he not also be responsible for stretching, conditioning, and mental preparation?

I'm not saying that the argument is right, only that it is reasonable.

[Vash01]

What would happen if a skater had a wardrobe malfunction during a performance but continued to skate anyway? For instance, if a female skater's top popped off and her breasts (or at least her bra) were shown, but she chose in a split-second to finish the routine, would she be penalized for NOT stopping?

Nobody wants to see the skater embarrassed due to costume malfunction, but the skater should accept the penalty for having to take a break. I don't consider this "beyond a skater's control" because skaters should pick costumes that would not fall off, and should check their costumes before the competition to make sure there is no broken strap, etc.

IMO the discussion is not really about whether a skater should be allowed a break or not; it's about whether there should be a deduction for taking a break. If the deduction is big enough, skaters might be more careful in using that break.

[MacMadame]

^
Are we counting only injuries or equipment issues, too?

I'm not counting equipment issues because I think those stops are okay and should continue to be allowed.

[hanca]

What would happen if a skater had a wardrobe malfunction during a performance but continued to skate anyway? For instance, if a female skater's top popped off and her breasts (or at least her bra) were shown, but she chose in a split-second to finish the routine, would she be penalized for NOT stopping?

That actually happened, a few years ago. A Russian dancer was doing compulsory dance at either Europeans or Worlds and the dress malfunctioned. Her breast did pop out but she continued.