Should a break in a program be severely penalized?

[ioana]

Regardless of what the skaters say, a breather in the middle of a program is an advantage over someone that has to push through a program. Skaters are awarded more points for landing jumps later in the program because it's harder to do them when tired. Imagine a skater who takes a break for a few minutes, then goes on the ice and lands all the jumps late in the program. That is an advantage, whether a skater admits it or not.

This could be different for singles vs. ice dancers. I'm not a high level skater, but the few times I tried compulsory dances getting in the right rhythm and count was by far the biggest challenge. Edges and steps were not all that difficult in and of themselves. I'm not sure if any international level ice dancers struggle with that (probably not ), but I'm sure some find it more difficult to get right back into a rhythm and character after a break. Isn't that part of the reason why some programs start out with posing and a few stationary steps before taking off for ftwk or a pattern?

[morqet]

But there the injury was done before they even started. So if they knew they were injured and they still decided to compete and then it was so bad that they couldn't continue, I think in this case actually they should withdraw.

But how can you enforce fairly this because how can you know whether an athlete is carrying an injury going into an event or not? It was obvious with Papadakis because her ankle was strapped, but something like Tessa's problem with her legs can't be seen like that, and although it's a pre-existing condition we don't know how severe it is all the time; if she has to stop mid program because her legs are suddenly in pain does that count under your rule as a known injury before they started? What if a skater has issues with their back, and like Papadakis's ankle, they have it taped with Kinesio tape, but the referee can't see the taping under the costume, so doesn't know about the injury? I don't think you can make a distinction based on whether it's a pre-exisiting injury or one that occurred during the program.

[Susan M]

(Deleted - duplicate, sorry)

[Leeedward]

MY TAKE: If a skater or team stops during a competitive program, the music should continue. The skater(s) can resume at any point as the music continues. When the music is completed, the skater or team is judged on what was completed. (If there is an injury, and the skater cannot continue, it is considered a withdrawal.)

[Susan M]

I'm not a high level skater, but the few times I tried compulsory dances getting in the right rhythm and count was by far the biggest challenge.

Compulsory dances are so short, I don't think there is the same endurance issue as in a free skate or free dance. It would be interesting to see over the years how many times these stoppages came in free skates rather than SP/SD. Just by the minutes involved, the ratio should be around 8:5 but I'd guess the freeskate stoppages have been much more frequent. Maybe knowing the end of the program is in sight would make a skater more likely to just push thru in the SP rather than stop.

Hanca, I think you're implying that the rule is "open" to abuse and I'm sure you don't mean that was the intent of anyone this season.

I don't think any of us accuses any particular skaters of stopping due to some deliberate strategy. How or why they choose to stop, it is still undeniable that a skater who uses the rule gets the benefit of a breather and the advantage of not having to skate the program all the way through.

I'm not sure that three minutes would necessarily be enough time to have someone examine the skater and diagnose any injury even if that were the purpose of the rule in the first place.

Exactly. The athletes are entirely on their honor to stop only when too ill or injured to continue. The problem is that once this practice starts, then other skaters will be more likely to use it, possibly for milder and milder issues. I don't think there is any question the rule is open to abuse.

[Tammi]

Regardless of what the skaters say, a breather in the middle of a program is an advantage over someone that has to push through a program.

My crystal ball wasn't working, so I tried an athlete instead, my mistake .

[TheIronLady]

MY TAKE: If a skater or team stops during a competitive program, the music should continue. The skater(s) can resume at any point as the music continues. When the music is completed, the skater or team is judged on what was completed. (If there is an injury, and the skater cannot continue, it is considered a withdrawal.)

What if their dresses fall off? I think the music should be stopped and they should be allowed to get the garment back on.

[MacMadame]

I think if their dresses fall off they should get a +2 for PE!

[TheIronLady]

I think if their dresses fall off they should get a +2 for PE!

Only if both partners costumes come off simultaneously.

[Japanfan]

Being allowed to re-try a missed element is a HUGE advantage for a skater. Regardless of what the skaters say, a breather in the middle of a program is an advantage over someone that has to push through a program. Skaters are awarded more points for landing jumps later in the program because it's harder to do them when tired. Imagine a skater who takes a break for a few minutes, then goes on the ice and lands all the jumps late in the program. That is an advantage, whether a skater admits it or not.

But the disruption to the program would easily eliminate any advantage gained by having the chance to redo the element. I really don't think - as some here suggest - that skaters intentionally stop and cry injury in order to redo an element. There is just no way to train for that. And nor can I see any motivation.

V&M's loss at 4CC provides an example of the disadvantage. There was just no way they could beat D&W after that, because of the disruption to the program. One might argue that by stopping and starting, they lost fewer points than they would have had they just missed the element. But again, I don't see how skaters can make the choice to say they were injured in order to restart their program. In the case of V&M or Zhangs, the injuries were obvious.

[Susan M]

I really don't think - as some here suggest - that skaters intentionally stop and cry injury in order to redo an element.

The current rule does not allow skaters to redo an element, so that whole issue is a non-starter. For example, if a skater falls on a jump so badly they can't get up and continue without a break, the program and scoring pick up after the jump, so the fall still counts.

In the case of V&M or Zhangs, the injuries were obvious.

Actually, in the case of V-M, the injury was not at all evident. She simply refused to let Scott lift her, then glided around, using both legs, for 15 or 20 seconds. She didn't limp, she didn't even lean over and rub the offending muscle (at least not on the videos I saw), and after the break she skated like there was nothing wrong. I don't suggest this was somehow a ploy but it is an example of an injury whose severity was not at all obvious and where the referee had to take the skater's word about the problem.

[DaiKozOda]

What if their dresses fall off? I think the music should be stopped and they should be allowed to get the garment back on.

Rubleva & Shefer... She had a problem with her dress during a program at the Euros a few years ago and they didn't stop. The video is quite a hit on youtube.

[kates8]

At Jr Worlds it appears that there was another stop and restart for a dance team...anyone know what occured in this case. https://mobile.twitter.com/icedancecom

[rvi5]

At Jr Worlds it appears that there was another stop and restart for a dance team...anyone know what occured in this case. https://mobile.twitter.com/icedancecom

Gabriella Papadakis had an ankle sprain during the morning warm-up. During the afternoon LP, she felt some pain and they stopped/restarted their program.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkRHaAwO1po

[kates8]

I was referring to the tweets about Zhang and Wu where they said - Zhang and Wu have stopped their program - looks like issue with Zhang and then another tweet that says They are continuing.

[gingercat]

Hanca, I think you're implying that the rule is "open" to abuse and I'm sure you don't mean that was the intent of anyone this season. It appears to me that all 3 teams were at a disadvantage, be it skating with a sprain or continuing after only a 3 minute delay for a cramp or spasm (I know for myself, I'm limping for an hour or so after one of those charley horses).

For what it's worth, I asked my skater (currently competing with these rules) and they didn't have a problem with any of the situations. In fact, they said it's not easy picking up a program after any type of interruption. Just food for thought too, a withdrawal shortly into a program could actually put the following skater at a disadvantage. If they are called earlier than expected to the ice, it could interrupt their normal preparation.

Following a delay can also interrupt the preparation of a skater. An athlete is a competitor, as a competitor you must face all sorts of hurdles. One such hurdle is injury. I am sure Kerry Scrugs ( not sure of the spelling) the gymnast would have loved to have postponed her Olympic performance until her foot felt better, she continued on. This is the life of an international competitive athlete, this is why they are better than the rest. If you can push through every day of training, fall after fall, then finishing off a program should not be an issue. Keep the playing field as fair as possible. Just my opinion.

[DORISPULASKI]

At Jr Worlds it appears that there was another stop and restart for a dance team...anyone know what occured in this case. https://mobile.twitter.com/icedancecom

I don't know what happened, but their protocol shows them to have had crazy problems, as well as the stoppage. They also got a music violation (-2) and an extended lift [-1). What's interesting is that the votes of the judges for the music violation show up on the protocol.

7 of 9 judges voted for it.

However, as in other cases of stoppages, you can't tell from the protocol that anything happened. They finished 17th in the FD. None of their elements had negative GOE. And there's no judge whose PCS votes aren't within +/-.5 of each other.

While I'm looking at Papadakis & Cizeron, their PCS was 43.86; Stepanova & Bukin's was 45.31, while Aldridge & Eaton got 42.80; clearly their PCS was pretty much what they would have gotten if they skated perfectly, since I sincerely doubt they would have passed S&B in PCS, given that their PCS was behind S&B in the SD.

In fact, you can show that there was no real deduction at all, despite that having been a flawed skate due to her ankle, not just an interrupted skate.

	SD	FD
SS	7.32	7.32
Link f/2	7.11	7.18
Perf	7.50	7.36
Choreo	7.36	7.46
Interp	7.39	7.32

They got 0.07 less for Interpretation & Timing than they did in the SD & 0.14 less in Performance- and given the total lack of timing & disruption of the program during the three part twizzle section(which is long enough to be a significant portion of the program), that seems very generous to me.

So no, there is no evidence at all that stopping hurts your PCS at this Jr Worlds.

[lauravvv]

Actually, in the case of V-M, the injury was not at all evident. She simply refused to let Scott lift her, then glided around, using both legs, for 15 or 20 seconds. She didn't limp, she didn't even lean over and rub the offending muscle (at least not on the videos I saw), and after the break she skated like there was nothing wrong. I don't suggest this was somehow a ploy but it is an example of an injury whose severity was not at all obvious and where the referee had to take the skater's word about the problem.

Yes, those who were not looking carefully couldn't notice anything. But those who did look could see her favoring her left leg a bit, and that it was obviously difficult for her to stand on that leg for a moment. Probably when she felt the cramp she was afraid that it could become more serious than it actually turned out, and probably it would have been so if she had just continued. But we can't know for sure. Still, I agree that it didn't look like anything severe looking from the outside. Although people, even athletes, are different - some have it ingrained in them to show their pain/weakness as little as possible. So, probably Virtue was feeling much worse than she did show.

[shan]

Yes, those who were not looking carefully couldn't notice anything. But those who did look could see her favoring her left leg a bit, and that it was obviously difficult for her to stand on that leg for a moment. Probably when she felt the cramp she was afraid that it could become more serious than it actually turned out, and probably it would have been so if she had just continued. But we can't know for sure. Still, I agree that it didn't look like anything severe looking from the outside. Although people, even athletes, are different - some have it ingrained in them to show their pain/weakness as little as possible. So, probably Virtue was feeling much worse than she did show.

I think your comments show the problem with the whole situation. There's just too much speculation and "probablys" and "can't know for sure" and depending upon what something appears to be. That's why I think the rule should be written in such a way that it can clearly be enforced.

[lauravvv]

I think your comments show the problem with the whole situation. There's just too much speculation and "probablys" and "can't know for sure" and depending upon what something appears to be. That's why I think the rule should be written in such a way that it can clearly be enforced.

Yes, I agree. But I also agree that skaters have to be given a chance to decide whether they can continue, or not, an the penalty can not be too severe, as it would discourage skaters with a serious problem from stopping for fear of having no choice but to withdraw, or of being so severely penalized that it wouldn't make sense to continue anyway even if they felt capable of continuing.