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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    Well they probably wouldn't be able to continue the program....
    The point is not everyone can 'see' an injury; it doesn't mean there isn't one. It's no different if a skater tweaks their ankle or knee, only they can decide if they can/should continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    But there the injury was done before they even started. So if they knew they were injured and they still decided to compete and then it was so bad that they couldn't continue, I think in this case actually they should withdraw.
    morqet posted above that Papadakis and Cizeron went over to the referee to say that they wanted to withdraw, but they were told to use the 3-minute break and see if they could continue.

    If such is the rule, what skater would not accept the offer? Most of these skaters won't leave the ice early unless on a stretcher! It is the rule that doesn't make much sense.

    BTW you can see why Gabriela stopped just before the circular step sequence. The one-foot section of the steps were on her injured foot! Ouch! She's so brave to have completed it. Any updates on her injury?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    morqet posted above that Papadakis and Cizeron went over to the referee to say that they wanted to withdraw, but they were told to use the 3-minute break and see if they could continue.

    If such is the rule, what skater would not accept the offer? Most of these skaters won't leave the ice early unless on a stretcher! It is the rule that doesn't make much sense.

    BTW you can see why Gabriela stopped just before the circular step sequence. The one-foot section of the steps were on her injured foot! Ouch! She's so brave to have completed it. Any updates on her injury?
    I am not questioning whether she was or wasn't injured. I am also not blaming the athletes for being able to continue when the rules allow to do so. I am just wondering whether the rules make sense and whether if there is increasing amount of such cases (last year none, this year three) whether it will cause some controversy at some major international competition (Worlds or even Olympics)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    morqet posted above that Papadakis and Cizeron went over to the referee to say that they wanted to withdraw, but they were told to use the 3-minute break and see if they could continue.

    If such is the rule, what skater would not accept the offer? Most of these skaters won't leave the ice early unless on a stretcher! It is the rule that doesn't make much sense.
    I really think the referee must have misapplied the rule. I thought it was meant to be a limit of 3 minutes to diagnose and treat a problem... not a maximum of 3 minutes to rest for an existing injury. I wonder if there were any chats afterwards with her. I am sure she was being kind, but it's a strange interpretation.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikjil View Post
    I know that tennis is a very different sport, but it has struggled a lot in recent years with how to handle injury timeouts, particularly with respect to cramping. When I first started watching you were allowed an injury time out if you got injured during play but not for something like cramping which was considered a loss of conditioning. After several incidents of players attempting to play through incredibly severe cramping (very upsetting to watch) the rule was changed. There have been a lot of questioning by commentators in the past few years about whether players were taking advantage of both loosened injury and bathroom break rules to gain a competative advantage. While both players get an extra rest break the rule can be used to disrupt another players flow. As far as I can see the various tennis federations have not been able to figure out how to handle this. I know that John McEnroe has advocated going back to the older rule and not allowing an injury time out for "loss of conditioning" injuries.

    I feel that skaters should be penalized for any type of injury stoppage, maybe with a more severe penalty for breaks for "loss of conditioning" or aggravation of a pre-existing injury. I don't think they should be penalized for stoppages caused by debris on the ice or problem that are the fault of outside conditions like audio problems, fire alarms, etc. The costume issue is more complicated. Yes there are costume issues that just happen, there are also issues (and skaters like Harding) who were known for regular costume malfunctions and not bringing proper extra equipment. I also know that some skaters have had major delays in getting costumes finished and haven't had the opportunity to get sufficient practice and aren't sure if they are going to work in competition. However, I've also looked at certain costumes and known that there was going to be a wardrobe malfunction just by the cut of the girls' neckline. OT I was at a ballet several years ago where Juliet fell out of her costume during the tomb scene (just kept dancing with one boob hanging out) and it was obvious all performance that there was going to be some type of wardrobe malfunction because none of the costumes fit her right. I've seen several wardrobe malfunctions in dance (including several that I thought were dangerous, and I've never seen a dancer stop the performance).
    The thing is though with both tennis and skating now, they are both much more physical and athletic then they ever used to be. The number of five set matches and matches lasting over four hours has increased significantly. And most of the players in the nineties and eighties probably couldn't get past the top 16 now. Especially on the women's side. The same goes for skaters. What the skaters are doing in all disciplines right now is way more athletic and difficult than in the past. I think the rules should keep up with and reflect those changes.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I really think the referee must have misapplied the rule. I thought it was meant to be a limit of 3 minutes to diagnose and treat a problem... not a maximum of 3 minutes to rest for an existing injury. I wonder if there were any chats afterwards with her. I am sure she was being kind, but it's a strange interpretation.
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    Rule 551
    Allowance of a Delayed Start or Restart
    1. If the tempo or quality of the music is deficient, the Competitor/s may restart the program from its beginning, provided the Referee is informed within 30 seconds after the start of the program.

    2. If an interruption or stop in the music or any other adverse condition unrelated to the Competitor/s or his/their equipment, such as lighting, ice-condition etc. occurs, the Competitor/s must stop skating at the acoustic signal of the Referee. The Competitor/s shall continue from the point of interruption immediately after the problem has been solved. If, however, the interruption lasts longer than ten minutes, there shall be a second warm-up period according to rule 549, paragraph 2.

    3. If a Competitor gets injured during the performance or another adverse condition related to him or his equipment (such as health problems or unexpected damage to his/their clothing or equipment) impedes his/their skating, the Competitor/s must stop skating. If he/they don’t stop, they will be ordered to do so by an acoustic signal of the Referee. The Competitor/s shall continue from the point of interruption immediately, if the adverse condition can be remedied without delay. If this is not possible, the Referee will allow an up to three (3) minutes period for the Competitor/s to resume skating from the point of interruption. This time period commences immediately after the Competitor/s stops skating or is ordered to do so by the Referee, whichever is earlier.

    If the Competitor/s does not resume skating his/their program within the three minutes period, he/she shall be considered withdrawn.
    As far as I can tell, the referee followed the rule.

    I'm not sure that three minutes would necessarily be enough time to have someone examine the skater and diagnose any injury even if that were the purpose of the rule in the first place.

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    I agree that skating is now much more physical and athletic. I also agree that what the skaters are doing in all disciplines right now is way more athletic and difficult than in the past and that the rules should keep up with and reflect those changes. However, how to ensure that it is fair for everyone if some couples will stop and some won't? In tennis you can't have one stopping and the other one not, so if they stop, they both have the same advantage. In skating you would have to make everyone stop (or at least tell them that they can stop if they choose to, because someone else have already stopped).

  8. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Also, if you want to quote multiple people, use the quote icon in the right-hand corner next to the one that says "Reply with Quote". It looks just like it but has a plus sign. Click on that for any post you want to quote and then on the last one click on the "Reply with Quote" one instead. It's a cool feature!
    Thank you!

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf



    As far as I can tell, the referee followed the rule.
    She followed the letter of the rule, but I was thinking more the intent of it. I don't think the ISU really intended for the referee to offer a full 3 minutes rest to skaters who intended to withdraw. I don't think she did anything wrong. I just wonder if this is what the ISU had in mind. Now that it has happened three times, I imagine there was probably talk about it after 4CC, and will be before Worlds (even as simple as "don't automatically give the option unless they ask for a re-start" if that's the consensus) and a more formal communication or change will be issued during the off-season.

  10. #210

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    Hanca, I think you're implying that the rule is "open" to abuse and I'm sure you don't mean that was the intent of anyone this season. It appears to me that all 3 teams were at a disadvantage, be it skating with a sprain or continuing after only a 3 minute delay for a cramp or spasm (I know for myself, I'm limping for an hour or so after one of those charley horses).

    For what it's worth, I asked my skater (currently competing with these rules) and they didn't have a problem with any of the situations. In fact, they said it's not easy picking up a program after any type of interruption. Just food for thought too, a withdrawal shortly into a program could actually put the following skater at a disadvantage. If they are called earlier than expected to the ice, it could interrupt their normal preparation.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tammi View Post
    Just food for thought too, a withdrawal shortly into a program could actually put the following skater at a disadvantage. If they are called earlier than expected to the ice, it could interrupt their normal preparation.
    Which is why I don't understand why they don't just wait out the time that the withdrawn skater would have taken or at least some portion of it (since they can't know exactly how long it would take to determine the marks).
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    Tammi, that's exactly what I am implying. That it is open to abuse. I am not saying that any of the three couples did abuse it, but if something is open to abuse, I believe that sooner or later someone will start taking advantage of it.

    Your skater may not have problem with the situation as such, but maybe would have a problem if he/she lost a medal because several couples who stopped beat her/him. Especially if your skater would perhaps have a very bad fall, get up and continue whereas someone else would stop without any obvious visible injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tammi View Post
    Just food for thought too, a withdrawal shortly into a program could actually put the following skater at a disadvantage. If they are called earlier than expected to the ice, it could interrupt their normal preparation.
    Not being able to get on the ice until 3 minutes later than expected would also disrupt their normal preparation, as well. I'm not sure there are any answers that are absolutely right here, but referees should double check and see whether or not a particular element should be allowed a reskate or not. I think a lot of this discussion goes back to V/M and the Shibs redoing their lifts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Tammi, that's exactly what I am implying. That it is open to abuse. I am not saying that any of the three couples did abuse it, but if something is open to abuse, I believe that sooner or later someone will start taking advantage of it.
    I think a lot of it is a perception thing. The injuries that caused the stops were not visible to the naked eye. It could appear to a casual observer that the skaters can stop if they feel like it, tell the referee they had a cramp or spasm, get a drink of water, take a nice breath, and then they get to redo the element! A lot of people already think fs is a pansy sport, so this could hurt its credibility in their eyes... for myself, I know these athletes are trained to go through the program, the last thing they want to do is stop, that ruining the overall impression kills a freedance, and so I doubt it will be abused too much.

    The question is, is the rule actually working to its logical conclusion and the intended consequences? How do the skaters feel about it? If the rule is working, is the possible negative perception enough reason to change it? I mean, in gymnastics they have the federations give money to the referee if they want to change the results, which I think makes it look like a mockery, and it happened with controversial results at the Olympics and AFAIK they didn't change anything.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    P/C are an entirely different case. They decided to compete when she was already injured. It was only after she messed up the twizzles that they asked to stop. I think the referee should have told them they could NOT continue because she started the program with an injury, and more skating could only make the injury worse.
    I don't think the referee's job is to be the medical official. What are you thinking?

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post

    The question is, is the rule actually working to its logical conclusion and the intended consequences? How do the skaters feel about it? If the rule is working, is the possible negative perception enough reason to change it? I mean, in gymnastics they have the federations give money to the referee if they want to change the results, which I think makes it look like a mockery, and it happened with controversial results at the Olympics and AFAIK they didn't change anything.
    What are you referring to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I mean, in gymnastics they have the federations give money to the referee if they want to change the results, which I think makes it look like a mockery, and it happened with controversial results at the Olympics and AFAIK they didn't change anything.
    Do you mean they need to put down a cash deposit for an appeal/protest? I'm not sure that 'looks' good on camera, but I doubt the rule would be changed just because of that. I know Tim Dagget had to explain the rule to Al Trautwig during the Olympics and he still acted as if he didn't understand. Al's a moron in general, so I wouldn't take his struggles with that concept as something the rest of the world has trouble with. Granted, some viewers might take that to heart and this goes back to the importance of commentators maintaining some professionalism. Even when they believe a result is incorrect or a rule might need some explanations before making sense to casual viewers. In the case of Olympic gymnastics, the cash advance is there to prevent frivolous appeals and is returned once the panel agrees to investigate the matter further.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/five_ring...decision_.html

  18. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tammi View Post
    Hanca, I think you're implying that the rule is "open" to abuse and I'm sure you don't mean that was the intent of anyone this season. It appears to me that all 3 teams were at a disadvantage, be it skating with a sprain or continuing after only a 3 minute delay for a cramp or spasm (I know for myself, I'm limping for an hour or so after one of those charley horses).

    For what it's worth, I asked my skater (currently competing with these rules) and they didn't have a problem with any of the situations. In fact, they said it's not easy picking up a program after any type of interruption. Just food for thought too, a withdrawal shortly into a program could actually put the following skater at a disadvantage. If they are called earlier than expected to the ice, it could interrupt their normal preparation.
    However, injuries, withdrawals, etc. are part of sports, and FS needs to be treated as a sport if it is to be part of the Olympics. What is a disadvantage for one skater could be an advantage for another. Being allowed to re-try a missed element is a HUGE advantage for a skater. Regardless of what the skaters say, a breather in the middle of a program is an advantage over someone that has to push through a program. Skaters are awarded more points for landing jumps later in the program because it's harder to do them when tired. Imagine a skater who takes a break for a few minutes, then goes on the ice and lands all the jumps late in the program. That is an advantage, whether a skater admits it or not.

    The rules need to be specific enough that everyone understands those, with the risks and rewards. If it's something obvious like an object on the ice, a skater does not need to be penalized for it. However, if a skater has leg cramps or any other physical problem, it needs to be treated like any sport, which means it could result in a withdrawal, but it needs to be the skater's decision. It does not mean that skater is hated or that the intent is to create problems for that skater or any other skater, but 'no deduction for a break in the program' is open to potential abuse. The rule must discourage skaters from using the break except in extreme circumstances -e.g. risk of serious injury- and that determination needs to be made by the skater, and not by the observers because they don't know what the skater is feeling. A rule specifying the deduction gives the skater an opportunity to evaluate risk vs reward.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    Do you mean they need to put down a cash deposit for an appeal/protest? I'm not sure that 'looks' good on camera, but I doubt the rule would be changed just because of that.
    Yes. I understand why the rule is there. It looks tacky but it serves a purpose. My point is the same as yours - that perception alone is not a good reason to change a rule if the rule is otherwise working. And perception of abuse, IMO, is the bigger problem with these skater stops than skaters actually abusing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Yes. I understand why the rule is there. It looks tacky but it serves a purpose. My point is the same as yours - that perception alone is not a good reason to change a rule if the rule is otherwise working. And perception of abuse, IMO, is the bigger problem with these skater stops than skaters actually abusing it.
    That I agree with. My main issue with this is the way starting points were determined after skaters stopped. I don't think we should make it as hard as possible for someone to finish their program. I do think we should take a closer look whether giving skaters the benefit of the doubt has been taken too far --when it comes to where they stopped.

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