What about diving? Once you leave the board I don't think there is any going back. You can't just abort mid air and get a redo.
The only sports with breaks are team sports where a break affects both teams so no one team gets to take advantage or individual sports where the athletes compete against each other like tennis and again both players get a break.
Are there any good examples of individual sports where athletes compete one at a time with allowed breaks?
"Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher
No, I think you are right that gymnastics does not allow stoppage. But there are MANY sports that allow stops. I did say -almost- every sport I've watched, not every. I was merely refuting "sport is sport". If "sport is sport" that includes team sports as well.But does it allows stoppage in the middle of the floor exercise?
The rulebook is very dificult to search though It does say that after taking a penalty elements after the time limit are still recognized by the D panel and scored by the E panel. It doesn't really address HOW long over the time limit one can go. For females, it says the routine must end with the music, so that would seem to be the limit, but not sure how that would work for men. (I've read in a few places that if the music stops you have a choice to start over, start from the point of the stop, or keep going without music. I don't know if the ref can stop the music on purpose though.)
ETA: The men's rulebook contains this:So it appears there are some situations in which case a 'redo' of the entire routine is allowed. Like stopping in skating, it seems like this would be very rare. Since most of the men's routines are so short, this makes more sense than a pause in the middle (redoing an entire long program would be more of a penalty for most skaters!)The gymnast is guaranteed the right to: Repeat their entire exercise, if the exercise has been interrupted
for reasons beyond his control or responsibility with
permission of the Superior Jury. such a request not be unreasonably denied with permission
from the Chair of the Superior Jury.
A fall on beam you get 10 seconds, bars 30 seconds . You are allowed to "rest and recuperate"(according to the rulebook), rechalk and confer with your coach during this time. If the timer is doing their job, this is NOT counted against the time of the program.If you stop in gymnastics on beam or bars then it is a fall which is 1 point or you end up going over time and having giant deductions anyway.
There are definetly instances where dives can be redone. Tom Daley was given a redive due to camera flashes. I would bet the rulebook has other reasons that a redive can be granted as well.What about diving? Once you leave the board I don't think there is any going back. You can't just abort mid air and get a redo.
Found this about synchro swimming. Can't find anything in their rulebook though.If the swimmers stop because of circumstances beyond their control, the Referee will allow the routine to be re-swum during the session.
Reading all these rules, I don't think a cramp is a reason for stopping. Within these sports, I'm not sure what might be (streaker running through the apparatus? Ceiling falling? They don't have to worry about crystals on the ice.) I think figure skating needs to re-write the rule to make it clear the intent. I don't think a stop should be granted for any of the reasons the three ice dancers took it this season, but I do think Didier deserved the pause + restart when she crashed into the walls so severely she couldn't get right back up. (Floor exercise doesn't have walls. What do they do if they trip and fall off the podium entirely?)
Last edited by Skittl1321; 03-07-2013 at 06:25 PM.
She did get a deduction- at that time the rules required for a -2 interuption in excess (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_Scores.pdf). And she was deducted for the fall. Plus she lost points on GOE on a really bad jump. And took a huge hit in PCS (though the program after the fall was a pretty big mess.)
The stop didn't exactly give her an unfair advantage, I don't think. If there was no injury "time-out" she would have likely just withdrawn. The "time out"gave her a chance to qualify her country a spot at the Olympics (due to invalid elements, she didn't- she was probably too disoriented to skate, and if it weren't for the Olympic qualifying- I bet her coaches wouldn't have had her continue). Since it is written in the rules that it is allowed, any competitor in a similar situation could have done the same thing.
It does seem though that now there is not a penalty for it, and perhaps skaters are being made more aware of the rule, maybe it is being taken advantage of? In the past, maybe both Alex and Tessa would have skated through the pain? Injuries that are not visible are difficult to make decisiosn about- we know Tessa is capable of skating through great pain for instance. She's a hard worker, I doubt she'd be faking it. In fact, I'd be shocked to hear of any skating who hasn't skated through pain/injury. So how does the ref decide what to allow and what not to allow?
Last edited by Skittl1321; 03-07-2013 at 06:22 PM.
Since The Shibs were the first instance of this happening in a long time, I don't think they were seeing other people do it "without penalty" and decided to do it too. Maybe Tessa and Scott were thinking of the Shibs when they stopped but most likely there were just thinking "crap, we can't win now". But I'd bet good money that the ref who suggested to the Jr. Worlds team to take a break instead of withdrawing was thinking of what happened to the Shibs and Virtue/Moir.
I also suspect it was this incident, with a ref offering this as an option to an injured team, that push a lot of people over the edge. It seemed the exact opposite of how you run a sport to me. It seemed a lot more like t-ball in Little League where you don't keep score!
Every time you say something stupid on the internet, Tim Berners-Lee punches a kitten.
I think that's why this thread now, after Jr. Worlds, not after 4CCs, and not after Rostelecom Cup.
Having a couple of teams take a mulligan in a competition is starting to look like the new normal, instead of something extraordinary that might happen once every couple of years.
I think it was quite enough to ask the ISU to think through whether this is really how things ought to work in a sport, and what happens if stopping without penalty spreads to singles & pairs (with the late program bonus).
I am sorry, but your arguments still don't hold skittl. You have yet to give an example of a sport that allows stoppage where the sport has athletes compete ONE AT A TIME. I don't care if a thousand other sports allow stoppage when those stops benefit both teams equally, such as in football, tennis, basketball, etc.
When I mentioned going over time on beam I was not meaning after a fall. I mentioned a fall AND going over time because in my mind I could see two situations. One, you stop your routine for whatever reason and hop off to take a break. That is a fall. Or you stop your routine and just stand there for a while, that is not a fall but would likely take too much time and result in going over time.
The example of Daley's vault is not really appropriate as the cause of his mishap was a flash, or in other words, something completely out of his control. I don't think anyone on here thinks that a skater should be penalized if someone throws something on the ice or decides to streak in the middle of someone's routine. Clearly a stop would be warranted and the athlete should not be punished. The example of getting one baulk on the vault isn't really valid either as the run is not part of the vault, it is not judged in any way, and therefore the vault has not been initiated until the horse is touched. If the horse is touched, then the athlete must finish or take a zero (this happened to Russia at the 2008 Olympics). The equivalent in diving would be someone starting their dive but stopping before leaving the board. I don't know about spring board rules but high divers would be allowed to walk back, regroup and then try again. The dive had not been initiated.
There are simply NO EXAMPLES of sports where athletes compete one at a time where they are allowed to stop (unless it is something completely out of their control). If I am wrong, please enlighten me.
"Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher
When a skater is allowed a stop/start-over for any reason--without a significant penalty--in a one-at-a-time (or a one-team-at-a-time) sport, it is unfair to all other participants. One must realize that it takes almost superhuman talent and fitness for skaters to compete at the national and international levels. It is not for the faint-of-heart-mind-or-body!
Skating is a bit special.
The incident that irritated me was Zhang/Zhang in 2006 in Turin. They stopped because of their failure on a risky element (which incidentally was a crap-shoot to begin with). Instead of losing their standing, the press praised them for bravery, and they won a silver medal. It was the last time I took pairs seriously for a couple of years. If you attempt a dangerous move and fail (a Hail Mary pass), the scoring should give you some credit for trying, but the judging should not tolerate breaks in the program to regroup from failures-- no matter how unfortunate and painful. The "components" imply there is a whole program to judge. A stop after a bad fall, a pep talk, and then a restart after wind is regained, is a lot of interruption. This would be appropriate in boxing, but it is not acceptable in skating.
Zhang & Zhang 2006 FS
Last edited by TheIronLady; 03-08-2013 at 11:36 AM.
I think it's highly unfair to the other skaters to allow an interrupted program to go unpenalized, if it is the responsibility of the skaters. PCS are supposed to judge characteristics over the entire program, and when unity/continuity is broken, it's asking the judges to compare apples to oranges.
Lest anyone think that it is only high profile skaters who suffer no penalty in PCS, Here's Yang & Wu's PCS. They did not do any JGP's this year, so there's no really comparable scores for this season.
Yang & Wu SD FD SS 4.82 4.93 Link f/2 4.43 4.61 Perf 4.75 4.75 Choreo 4.64 4.93 Interp 4.57 4.79
I think a break, at the very least, should obviate any back-half bonuses. I'd also assert that if the break happens during or immediately preceding an element, that the skater(s) shouldn't be allowed to perform the element again.