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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    The athletes involved care. That is why I said "athletes don't want to win on a technicality" and not "fans don't want athletes to win on a technicality." I did later clarify that to say it's mostly athletes in individual sports who care.

    I will give an example outside of skating... the year Chrissie Wellington defended her Ironman World Championship, she got a flat tire and when she was fixing it, she messed up her CO2 canister or it was defective or something. Anyway, she had no air to put back in her tire and the SAG wagon was very far away. So the word went out on the course and one of the gal pros threw her a CO2 canister as she was riding by. Chrissie finished fixing her flat and went on to win the race. After the race, people did ask the pro who helped her about that... why'd you give Chrissie your canister? She said she didn't want to win because Chrissie had a flat. She wanted to beat her on the playing field. But most people didn't even ask because that's the culture of that sport. OF COURSE you give the other pro your canister. Or your spare goggles. Or tell them they are about to go off course and run an extra .5 miles.
    I think you are making assumptions on moral values of individuals within sport. But people vary; some are honest and some are happy to cheat if given opportunity. If everyone was so honest and wanted win only the fair way, there wouldn't need to be any drug tests, because no one would even consider taking drugs to enhance their performance. But reality is, some do. And some are willing to go into such length as risking their own health to get even tiny advantage, so if a skater has a chance to cheat by claiming that they are injured and take a break in the middle of their program while they are not penalised, are you certain that none of the skaters would ever consider using it? Do you really believe that every skater would be so honest if it was a fight for gold olympic medal?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I think you are making assumptions on moral values of individuals within sport. But people vary; some are honest and some are happy to cheat if given opportunity. If everyone was so honest and wanted win only the fair way, there wouldn't need to be any drug tests, because no one would even consider taking drugs to enhance their performance. But reality is, some do. And some are willing to go into such length as risking their own health to get even tiny advantage, so if a skater has a chance to cheat by claiming that they are injured and take a break in the middle of their program while they are not penalised, are you certain that none of the skaters would ever consider using it? Do you really believe that every skater would be so honest if it was a fight for gold olympic medal?
    I admit I've never done competitive skating so I can only relate with dancing. But I can tell you that stopping in the middle of a performance, for whatever reason, is NEVER an advantage, because it takes you out of your interpretation and it breaks the rhythm of the performance, and getting back into it is not easy

    So while I totally agree with you that some athletes would probably cheat given the occasion, I don't think they would cheat on that because faking an injury to get a break wouldn't give them any kind of advantage, especially in dance which relies even more on rhythm of interpretation than singles and pairs.....

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    I admit I've never done competitive skating so I can only relate with dancing. But I can tell you that stopping in the middle of a performance, for whatever reason, is NEVER an advantage, because it takes you out of your interpretation and it breaks the rhythm of the performance, and getting back into it is not easy

    So while I totally agree with you that some athletes would probably cheat given the occasion, I don't think they would cheat on that because faking an injury to get a break wouldn't give them any kind of advantage, especially in dance which relies even more on rhythm of interpretation than singles and pairs.....
    Its advantage. For example If Virtue/Moir hadn't stopped, just skip the lift they will have to lost 10.43 points. PCS doesn't cost that much. Virtue/Moir's highest PCS ever 57. something and they get 56. something for 2013 4CC.

    Imagine: Trankov can't lift Volosozhar at one of the their lifts and because they know instead of continue they can easily stop, repeat their lift, get their medal.

  4. #84

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    I don't know why V&M's lift was not considered aborted and they were allowed to redo it. I guess the judges determined that they stopped skatingbefore entering the lift?

    I am personally okay with rules allowing skaters to restart a program - I was okay with Zhangs silver medal in Turino. It gives countries a chance to retain or gain spots, rather than lose spots, and gives skaters a chance to earn a total score. Plus, skaters learn to push through injuries and compete with injuries. Punishing them for a stop due to an injury issue, or not allowing them to restart the program, undermines the development of this important attribute.

    Perhaps some skaters used to stop programs in order to get a chance to redo elements, but I don't thinks that the primary reason, at least in recent times. Injury disrupts a program and because of that, skaters lose more than they gain. V&M probably knew they didn't have a chance of winning 4CCs after they interrupted the program. They were in first place after the SD and had a good shot at winning. Losing by 3 points was huge and they would have saved face better by just bowing out due to injury.

    For the most part, skaters' mentality is to finish the program at all costs. It would have to be trained into them young, as otherwise more skaters would quit mid-program just because the nerves got to them or they were having a bad outing. I'm sure it does happen on occasion, but getting through programs with injuries is far more the norm.

    Imagine: Trankov can't lift Volosozhar at one of the their lifts and because they know instead of continue they can easily stop, repeat their lift, get their medal.
    I can't imagine it. It would be extremely difficult to time it right and make the moment look authentic. In addition, the program would be disrupted and that net effects of that could be a score lower than it would have been had the program been skated continuously with an aborted lift.

  5. #85
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    Taking a break of more than 10 seconds for pain or medical issues should be a -3.0 penalty. At major events, skaters should have the option of stopping and restarting in a worst case scenario. I think a stop due to a non-equipment failure should be allowed at Euros/Worlds/Olympics but with a -3.0 penalty.

    At lesser events I say tough luck to everyone. Once you stop your program you're done. I don't care if you have the wind knocked out of you. You need to get off the ice and see a doctor unless it is Europeans or Worlds. Better luck next time.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 03-03-2013 at 11:44 AM.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    I admit I've never done competitive skating so I can only relate with dancing. But I can tell you that stopping in the middle of a performance, for whatever reason, is NEVER an advantage, because it takes you out of your interpretation and it breaks the rhythm of the performance, and getting back into it is not easy

    So while I totally agree with you that some athletes would probably cheat given the occasion, I don't think they would cheat on that because faking an injury to get a break wouldn't give them any kind of advantage, especially in dance which relies even more on rhythm of interpretation than singles and pairs.....
    It is a huge advantage. Have you noticed how breathless Tessa Virtue was when they stopped? And 3 minutes is long enough to bring your pulse rate back down. when skater is breathless/tired etc, they are more likely to do mistakes. So skating with having a break in between and drink of water is really huge advantage.

    When I come from holiday and I am out of shape, my coach usually let me do my run throughs in two parts. So if it is helping me, why it wouldn't be helping them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Imagine: Trankov can't lift Volosozhar at one of the their lifts and because they know instead of continue they can easily stop, repeat their lift, get their medal.
    Absolutely! I am curious when pairs will catch up on the new trends in figure skating! Why to do a program in one piece if you can have a break, drink and then do the lifts and rest of the jumps...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I can't imagine it. It would be extremely difficult to time it right and make the moment look authentic. In addition, the program would be disrupted and that net effects of that could be a score lower than it would have been had the program been skated continuously with an aborted lift.
    This is the problem. Virtue/Moir get their SB at 4CC. They get 103 at RC 104 at SC 108 at GPF and with a break middle of the program they get 109 at 4CC I didn't know this rule until Rostelecom Cup, but now

    Maybe Elene Ilinykh will fell just before the step sequence. If she don't have a time to stand up, she can fake a injury. Why lose some levels and GOE? Or maybe Davis/White will stumble or fell just before their twizzle and they will stop because they can fake a injury and do their twizzles with fresh legs. Why lose couple of points at poor quality twizzles? Sotnikova or Gold or Kostner can stop and take her time for second half of the program and get 0.1 bonus too. Fernandez can take a break before his quad. Why not? You can't lose points with this rule. Just look at the protocols.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    It is a huge advantage. Have you noticed how breathless Tessa Virtue was when they stopped? And 3 minutes is long enough to bring your pulse rate back down. when skater is breathless/tired etc, they are more likely to do mistakes. So skating with having a break in between and drink of water is really huge advantage.

    When I come from holiday and I am out of shape, my coach usually let me do my run throughs in two parts. So if it is helping me, why it wouldn't be helping them?
    Ok, so this is not a theoretical debate. You build this argumentation because you believe Tessa Virtue cheated - you should have said so

    While stopping may allow you to catch your breath, your adrenaline levels will also go down, your mental focus will change and you run the risk of not being "in" your program anymore, which actually increases the risks of making mistakes once you continue. Again, from my experience of actually having to stop in the middle of a competition, I believe the risks outweight the advantages. It certainly never crossed my mind to stop as a convenience

    And you can't compare training run throughs with competition - that's just not the same thing

    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    This is the problem. Virtue/Moir get their SB at 4CC. They get 103 at RC 104 at SC 108 at GPF and with a break middle of the program they get 109 at 4CC I didn't know this rule until Rostelecom Cup, but now
    Ice dancing judging lets a lot to be desired as a whole - the issue of V/M's marks at 4CC is just part of a much larger problem. Frankly, D/W's overly inflated marks didn't make much sense to me either (even though their victory suffered no discussion)

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    Ok, so this is not a theoretical debate. You build this argumentation because you believe Tessa Virtue cheated - you should have said so
    Hang on, I have not accused her of cheating! I noted that she was breathless. While I am not disputing whether she was or wasn't injured (by the way, do cramps count as an injury?), the bottom line is that she restarted after having a drink and rest, her pulse again lowered. So no matter if she was injured or not, the fact still remain that while being breathless/tired she would be more likely making mistake than when skating breathless (that's true for everyone, not just Tessa). So they did have advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post

    While stopping may allow you to catch your breath, your adrenaline levels will also go down, your mental focus will change and you run the risk of not being "in" your program anymore, which actually increases the risks of making mistakes once you continue. Again, from my experience of actually having to stop in the middle of a competition, I believe the risks outweight the advantages. It certainly never crossed my mind to stop as a convenience
    If I were a coach not only I will say them, I will prepare them if something like this happened a competiton. For example Soloviev fell before their step sequence at GPF 2012. They continued their program. They lost timing and speed. Levels and GOE effected by this. You can see this if you look at the protocols. But if they were stopped and Soloviev says the referee something happened his legs after the fall, they will have 3 minutes and with that also speed and timing going into the steps. Skaters don't skate their full programs at training so its not that hard to skate after the break. Soloviev didn't do this so when you looked the protocols you see a mistake. You can't see this 4CC and WJC protocols.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Hang on, I have not accused her of cheating! I noted that she was breathless. While I am not disputing whether she was or wasn't injured (by the way, do cramps count as an injury?), the bottom line is that she restarted after having a drink and rest, her pulse again lowered. So no matter if she was injured or not, the fact still remain that while being breathless/tired she would be more likely making mistake than when skating breathless (that's true for everyone, not just Tessa). So they did have advantage.
    I assume you meant she would be more likely to make mistakes than if she isn't as tired/ breathless

    I'm reading your post again: if you weren't trying to imply that her stopping was being a convenience for them, maybe you'll want to reword things differently, even if I admit you didn't outright call them cheaters

    I still stand by what I say: the advantage of catching your breath is offset by having to rebuild the adrenaline levels, having to refocus and go back into character. I would even go as far as saying that the risks are bigger than the advantage. The question of being able to attempt a difficulty again after being aborted, on the other hand, is more problematic and I agree that it must be addressed clearly if there is a possibility as things stand now to use and abuse any existing loophole in the rules (ps: I haven't re-read the current rules regarding the circumstances under which you're allowed/ not allowed to re-attempt an aborted difficulty)
    Last edited by rayhaneh; 03-03-2013 at 02:25 PM.

  13. #93
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    There definitely should be an OT deduction among the other deductions mentioned here.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    If I were a coach not only I will say them, I will prepare them if something like this happened a competiton. For example Soloviev fell before their step sequence at GPF 2012. They continued their program. They lost timing and speed. Levels and GOE effected by this. You can see this if you look at the protocols. But if they were stopped and Soloviev says the referee something happened his legs after the fall, they will have 3 minutes and with that also speed and timing going into the steps. Skaters don't skate their full programs at training so its not that hard to skate after the break. Soloviev didn't do this so when you looked the protocols you see a mistake. You can't see this 4CC and WJC protocols.
    Good point. I honestly don't believe any of the 3 dance teams that have taken breaks this season were being dishonest, but I could see teams using this in the future. I agree that people are not going to stop for no reason or just to take a breath - that's ridiculous - they are conditioned to get through the program and they're not going to want to lose momentum. But I can see coaches telling the skaters that if you already made a big mistake, you may as well try to get the break so you can, if nothing else, build up speed for the next element. At that point, you're probably already out of the medals or dropping a place anyway, so the break can't hurt (whereas it would hurt you to take a break if you haven't made any other mistakes). And it's not even necessarily lying - it hurts to fall down, so it's prudent to take a moment to check that you're not seriously injured.

    So yeah, they really need to change something before this becomes a bigger problem. Maybe make it that only the referee can stop the program for injury. That would mean the injury would have to be visible to the referee. If it is not, then the music stays on and the skater can take 30 seconds or whatever to sit on the ice or go to the boards, but they lose that time in the program, and possibly incur deductions for excessive breaks. Does that still exist? There had been, I think, a deduction for when you fall and are too slow to get back up (with the music still playing).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Taking a break of more than 10 seconds for pain or medical issues should be a -3.0 penalty. At major events, skaters should have the option of stopping and restarting in a worst case scenario. I think a stop due to a non-equipment failure should be allowed at Euros/Worlds/Olympics but with a -3.0 penalty.

    At lesser events I say tough luck to everyone. Once you stop your program you're done. I don't care if you have the wind knocked out of you. You need to get off the ice and see a doctor unless it is Europeans or Worlds. Better luck next time.
    I take it 4CC doesn't rate as an important enough competition to be included with Euros/Worlds/Olympics? So skaters from Europe are allowed a break at their competition, but skaters from Asia/Americas/Australia etc are not allowed a break at theirs?
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    - Deleted. Quote fail.

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    I think the fairest way to handle a disruption 60 seconds or less in a program is to deduct a point from the overall score (like a fall) regardless of the reason. Any disruption longer than that will be an automatic DNF (did not finish) disqualification.

    If the rules are applied universally at all skating competitions and communicated clearly that there are no exceptions (i.e. even for true emergency reasons), then it is fair. It is the athlete's responsibility to come to the meet in competition-ready form (I.e. don't compete if you're still nursing an injury!) and have all their equipment (skates, costume, etc) checked prior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suze View Post
    I think the fairest way to handle a disruption 60 seconds or less in a program is to deduct a point from the overall score (like a fall) regardless of the reason. Any disruption longer than that will be an automatic DNF (did not finish) disqualification.

    If the rules are applied universally at all skating competitions and communicated clearly that there are no exceptions (i.e. even for true emergency reasons), then it is fair. It is the athlete's responsibility to come to the meet in competition-ready form (I.e. don't compete if you're still nursing an injury!) and have all their equipment (skates, costume, etc) checked prior.
    I like this: The aspect of figure skating that I find so difficult is that you work so hard for just a few minutes on the ice. If something does go wrong a small deduction is acceptable to me but I would hate to see a huge deduction. Skaters don't have the luxury of plenty of time spent in competition like baskeball or volleyball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    I assume you meant she would be more likely to make mistakes than if she isn't as tired/ breathless

    I'm reading your post again: if you weren't trying to imply that her stopping was being a convenience for them, maybe you'll want to reword things differently, even if I admit you didn't outright call them cheaters

    I still stand by what I say: the advantage of catching your breath is offset by having to rebuild the adrenaline levels, having to refocus and go back into character. I would even go as far as saying that the risks are bigger than the advantage. The question of being able to attempt a difficulty again after being aborted, on the other hand, is more problematic and I agree that it must be addressed clearly if there is a possibility as things stand now to use and abuse any existing loophole in the rules (ps: I haven't re-read the current rules regarding the circumstances under which you're allowed/ not allowed to re-attempt an aborted difficulty)
    You refer to the necessity of building back the adrenaline. However, excessive adrenaline- a very frequent occurence under pressure- is just as detrimental as not having enough, so it purely depends on an individual. Somebody who is flooded with adrenaline and cannot think straight, or hyperventilates, would greatly benefit from a 3-minute- break. It varies too much from person to person to be taken into consideration ( as a person who has excessive adrenaline under pressure and have been learning to deal with it all my life, I know what I am talking about).
    And skaters start from different elements in practice all the time, and talk about necessity of building up the endurance to get through the whole program.
    I am not for draconian rules, but certainly for a deduction, and perhaps a stricter time limit.
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  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cachoo View Post
    I like this: The aspect of figure skating that I find so difficult is that you work so hard for just a few minutes on the ice. If something does go wrong a small deduction is acceptable to me but I would hate to see a huge deduction. Skaters don't have the luxury of plenty of time spent in competition like baskeball or volleyball.
    No, but what about gymnasts? They also work very hard for a few minutes programs and they don't have second chances. Is gymnastics 'safer' than figure skating? Aren't injuries common in gymnastics? Does anyone take 3 minutes off in the middle of their bar routine and then finish without having any deductions?

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