Should a break in a program be severely penalized?

[Cherub721]

I think it would help if at least they only allowed restarts from the point where the music stopped, and not from the element that was missed. V&M didn't abort a lift (it never went up) but they did skate through it. They should have been allowed to start the program when the music had stopped and then it would be their choice to resume the program (and skip the lift) or to try to cram in the lift in a different section of the music (and risk messing up their timing on all the other elements). BTW, they had a big enough lead over Chock/Bates that they would have had silver even if they didn't get the 10+ points the lift was worth.

I also find the referee's reaction the French team curious, although well-intentioned I am sure. I don't think the intent of the rule is "oh dear, don't withdraw, you have 3 minutes to rest!" I thought the 3 minutes was there to limit the time (I can't find a video of the Zhangs but I think their stop was substantially longer), basically to say if your problem is so big that it can't be resolved in 3 minutes, you're done. I expect that at least the ISU will issue clarification there, and more likely, they will come up with either a deduction or rule change.

[Asli]

This forum exploded with indignation when V/M did it at 4CCs so I'm not sure what your point is here.

I wouldn't call that polite discussion "exploding with indignation". Many people understandably questioned the rule/decision and said that there should be a deduction for an interruption, but noone cried politics or and there was hardly any vitriol against the skaters, fortunately.

I hope no such situation arises at the Worlds. Three times in one season is too much. If a skater has a cramp, that is her/his problem.

My own line of thought is that anything that is not under the control of the athlete should be allowed.

ITA with you.

As for other sports, there are penalty-free injury breaks in combat sports such as judo and taekwondo.

Judo and taekwondo don't have uninterrupted routines though. They are already start-stop. Besides, the injury break gives the opponent the same amount of rest, so it is not unfair.

[MacMadame]

It's true that other sports allow stops. But other sports aren't a performance either. Stopping breaks the flow of a performance in the way that matters compared to a sport like football where stopping is built-in and expected and even part of the strategy.

I think there are a number of considerations for how breaks should be handled. Safety of the athletes should be #1 IMO. Next is fairness. Third would be that athletes want to win based on beating their competitors, not on technicalities. The final and least important consideration should be the audience/fans and how it impacts us.

I think the current rules in figure skating are fine when it comes to athlete safety. I'm not so sure they are fair though. And they definitely don't do it for the fan/audience.

How about that "winning on a technicality" thing? If I won a competition because one competitor's crystals fell on the ice and the next competitor wasn't allowed to stop and make the ice people clean them up so either fell or withdrew, I'd be pissed. Especially if they were my biggest rival. The same if their boot lace came loose or a strap on their costume and ref made them stop for safety and then they had to withdraw because that was the rule - no stopping. That's not how I want to win and I think that's not how skaters want to win.

In other sports, especially team sports, winning on technicalities is more acceptable, I think. But in individual sports, it seems to be less acceptable.

I wouldn't call that polite discussion "exploding with indignation".

We were all QUITE indignant though. Quite. And we exploded with the exact same discussion we're having now only with about 10x the passion because it had just happened.

[Lacey]

The referee stopped the music because V/M interrupted their program and were skating around the rink. Tessa aborted a lift. They should at least not been given the aborted lift IMO. It's incredible that they were allowed to do the lift after catching their breath and drinking water. If a Russian team were given this possibility at the Worlds, IMO this forum would explode with indignation.

If I am not mistaken, Scott did a double take with his head when he realized that the ref would permit them to redo the lift, basically start that portion over.

If one of the partners does not initially do the lift, then it should be scored a zero, IMO.

[Asli]

We were all QUITE indignant though. Quite. And we exploded with the exact same discussion we're having now only with about 10x the passion because it had just happened.

O.K. Indignation noted. Maybe I would have felt the strength explosion if I had read the thread live.

[hanca]

My own line of thought is that anything that is not under the control of the athlete should be allowed. It's not one dance team's fault that the team ahead of it dumped crystals all over the ice, for example. It's not a skater's fault that the fire alarm went off in the middle of their skate. Those kinds of interruptions should be allowed with no penalty other than what naturally comes from interrupting a program (it interrupts the flow).

Equipment malfunction is not as black and white but because of the safety issues and because of the culture of figure skating, I would allow it within certain predefined criteria for how long the interruption is and what kinds of malfunctions allow the program to be restarted.

I agree with that, but then one can argue that injuries are out of the skater's control. So I would clarify this rule, anything that is not under the control of the athlete should be allowed, except of injuries. (and then reason for that is as I wrote above- because it is not possible to fairly distinguish who is really injured and who isn't.)

[hanca]

How about that "winning on a technicality" thing? If I won a competition because one competitor's crystals fell on the ice and the next competitor wasn't allowed to stop and make the ice people clean them up so either fell or withdrew, I'd be pissed. Especially if they were my biggest rival. The same if their boot lace came loose or a strap on their costume and ref made them stop for safety and then they had to withdraw because that was the rule - no stopping. That's not how I want to win and I think that's not how skaters want to win.

In other sports, especially team sports, winning on technicalities is more acceptable, I think. But in individual sports, it seems to be less acceptable.

Winning on technicality - I don't think that anyone really cares. A few fans may remember that person A won on technicality but that in reality maybe person B should have won, but in a few years time the fact remains that the person A was better than person B. It is the same as if you win only with 0.301 score. For a year or two maybe someone may remember that it was more like a joint first place rather than a second place, but in a few years time no one will know. Second place is second place, no matter if it was on technicality or just 0.01 mark lower than the first place.

[lauravvv]

I think skaters can be allowed to restart if they can. I agree that there should be no fixed penalty if it's something outside of skater's control (although that's not a precise term, as a skate/costume malfunction can also be outside of skater's control, as can a temporary medical condition that is not a consequence of previous injury), but perhaps it can be added in the description for PCSs requirements that judges can detract from PCS if they feel that it really spoiled the impression of the program. If an interruption happens because of an injury (which can't be proved right away), or because the skater hasn't been careful enough in regard to his/her skates/boots/laces or costume, then they should be penalized. But not by so much that they could loose to a skater/team that did the technical elements at a much lower level. Perhaps by so much that they could loose to someone who is really close. I can't tell precisely right now.

[danceronice]

It's true that other sports allow stops. But other sports aren't a performance either. Stopping breaks the flow of a performance in the way that matters compared to a sport like football where stopping is built-in and expected and even part of the strategy.

In most equestrian events, which aren't (except, kinda sorta, the Kur phase of GP dressage) performance, if you have an equipment failure, you fall off, your horse stumbles or loses a shoe...too bad, so sad. You're excused. Everyone understands that these things happen, that in most cases it's not really in the rider's control (even things like the shoe can happen when they appeared fine beforehand), but if it happens in the jump-off at the Olympics, or in the Kur (musical freestyle, the final round of Dressage) at the WEG...too bad, so sad. That's part of the job, sometimes you go out, crap happens, it's not fair to the other competitors riding before you or after you if you get a do-over.

[gkelly]

I think the following situations should be considered in the skater's sphere of responsibility, even if not in their immediate control, and thus subject to penalties:

injury
equipment or costume failure
mental lapse
music failure if and only if the problem is clearly with the media provided by the skater and not with the equipment provided by the organizers (or human error by the music operator)

So I would think only those kinds of problems would be subject to official penalty. Anything else is too bad and will probably have a negative effect on the judges' overall perception of the performance, but there's no reason to build in a penalty.

The only time I would consider injury outside the skater's responsibility would be they were hit by something falling from the ceiling or shot or thrown by someone in the audience in the middle of the performance.

[MacMadame]

Winning on technicality - I don't think that anyone really cares.

The athletes involved care. That is why I said "athletes don't want to win on a technicality" and not "fans don't want athletes to win on a technicality." I did later clarify that to say it's mostly athletes in individual sports who care.

I will give an example outside of skating... the year Chrissie Wellington defended her Ironman World Championship, she got a flat tire and when she was fixing it, she messed up her CO2 canister or it was defective or something. Anyway, she had no air to put back in her tire and the SAG wagon was very far away. So the word went out on the course and one of the gal pros threw her a CO2 canister as she was riding by. Chrissie finished fixing her flat and went on to win the race. After the race, people did ask the pro who helped her about that... why'd you give Chrissie your canister? She said she didn't want to win because Chrissie had a flat. She wanted to beat her on the playing field. But most people didn't even ask because that's the culture of that sport. OF COURSE you give the other pro your canister. Or your spare goggles. Or tell them they are about to go off course and run an extra .5 miles.

Skaters mostly seem to be like that from what I've seen. You don't see skaters whining about rules that let them stop if their bootlace comes undone and no skaters who came in behind V/M at 4CC whined about them stopping either. It was all the fans doing that. The stopping thing bothers us much more than it bothers the athletes. (So maybe they do think the rules are fair?? Interesting idea. I will have to noodle on that.)

I agree with that, but then one can argue that injuries are out of the skater's control.

Well one can argue anything. But I have a hard time swallowing the argument that a skater's body breaking down is the same thing as someone in the audience pulling the fire alarm as a joke and the building being evacuated. It's the job of the skater to show up ready to compete. If they show up with an injury or they get injured during a performance, they haven't done their job and shouldn't get a do-over.

[iNap]

I don't think any skater should be penalised. This is good idea for ISU and sponsers. All skaters could do this for future. Sponsers can put advertissementes for all breaks. Why only one break?? maybe 2 or 3 or 4. Some program are boring and some people can use bathrooms during this time also

[Rob]

I didn't like it when Zhangs won Silver in Torino with a fall and a beak, and I still don't like breaks in the program.

[AlexDSSF]

What would happen if a skater had a wardrobe malfunction during a performance but continued to skate anyway? For instance, if a female skater's top popped off and her breasts (or at least her bra) were shown, but she chose in a split-second to finish the routine, would she be penalized for NOT stopping?

[Skittl1321]

Didn't an ice dancer once do half of a compulsory with her breast hanging out? I think that scenario has already happened.

[Mayra]

Sorry but if you sustain an injury during your program to the point that you need to stop and regroup, then you shouldn't be allowed to continue. No excuses. Got a cramp? Better luck next time. Here's the exit, let me hand you your skate guards.

The fact that this has happened 3 times this season in ice dance is a joke and really doesn't help the reputation of the discipline IMO.

[dinakt]

Define "severely penalized".
IMO, injury breaks should be allowed, but with a deduction of "-3", plus not being allowed to repeat any elements that were aborted by the stop; the element not executed the first time gets an automatic 0. Certainly re-doing any elements and counting them should be out of the question.
I also wonder if a distinction of "hazardous" injury is in order... If there is blood involved, more time might be allowed to tend to the would, with a doctor present on ice. In case of the currect crop of injuries ( not disputed by me at all, but impossible to assess), a stricter time limit might be necessary. 3 minutes is a long time.

[rayhaneh]

Sorry but if you sustain an injury during your program to the point that you need to stop and regroup, then you shouldn't be allowed to continue. No excuses. Got a cramp? Better luck next time. Here's the exit, let me hand you your skate guards.

The fact that this has happened 3 times this season in ice dance is a joke and really doesn't help the reputation of the discipline IMO.

Except for skaters "next time" could mean next year, or could have much larger repercutions on their middle term career should that happen at Nationals in certain countries as this could determine their chances of getting international assignments for the following season. I think the penalty here is too heavy and an athlete should be allowed to have a chance to continue, although any cut to the program should be penalized, unless the organization actually bears responsibility for the cut (defective audio equipment, electricity cut, etc - we got a few examples of what could go wrong at the Junior Worlds in Milan this week actually)

As a runner, I've had, on the rare occasion, cramps that were powerful enough that I was not able to continue right away. Not because I can't push through pain, but because the cramp was violent enough that I couldn't move my leg properly anymore. But usually that kind of cramps go away pretty quickly and I was able to resume after a couple of minutes. To be honest, I've never taken part to a race where simply stopping automatically disqualifies you, and that includes nationals. I don't see why skaters should be more penalized than we are

In the case of running, the penalty is automatic as you simply lose the time you need before you can resume running, plus the time to go back in your race rhythm. I'm sure we can come to have fair penalties depending on the various possible reasons for stopping - what would hurt the sport is not the possibility of stopping the program, but rather the perception that skaters are not treated equally as far as consequences for a break in the program are concerned

[Skittl1321]

I don't think an injury/emergency stop should get a penalty, but I don't think the element that was aborted should be allowed to be repeated.

I recall a singles skater (maybe a Fin?) crumpling into the boards after sliding on a fall. She was given an amount of time to get of the ice and regroup, and I think she started skating again. She was obviously hurt, as the rest of her program wasn't fabulous.

I'm all for that. If a skater is hurt, but thinks they can continue, they should get to. But if they abort a lift or hurt themselves on a fall, they should pick up from after the element. I'd also be okay with from where the music was stopped- that way skaters need to signal to the referees quickly to that they are stopping (though if you are in a crumpled heap after a fall, that may not be fair...).

For a broken blade, lace, pant strap- etc. You start from where the referee whistles for you to stop, or from where you signal that you need the music to be stopped.

[Ziggy]

It really is simple to solve.

If there's a costume/safety issue, referee whistles = no deduction

If skater runs out of breath and stops on his own = deduction

I guess that could lead to skaters tearing pieces of their costumes off if they wanted a break.