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  1. #1

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    Menshov Snubbed for World Figure Skating Champs

    Menshov Snubbed for World Figure Skating Champs
    http://en.rsport.ru/other_sports/201...647071337.html
    MOSCOW, February 22 (R-Sport) - Russian figure skating star Konstantin Menshov has been denied a place at next month's world championships despite appearing to meet a prerequisite set by officials.

    Menshov, 29, was reportedly told he would have to put in a worthy performance at this week's Russian Cup Final to be considered for Russia's only place in the men's singles event at the March 11-17 championships in London, Ontario.

    Menshov, a former national champion, won the event in the Russian city of Tver outright, posting a better score than the man who is to take his place in Canada, Maxim Kovtun, at last month's European championships in Zagreb.

    The Figure Skating Federation of Russia justified the move by saying the 17-year-old Kovtun has a better chance of finishing in the top ten, which would grant Russia two entrants into the Sochi 2014 Winter Olympic program.

    "In the opinion of experts and the executive committee of the (federation), Kovtun has better chances of getting into the top ten skaters in the world than the other national pretenders," the federation said in a website statement, adding other stars in Artur Gachinski and Sergei Voronov had also been considered.
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    Do we really need a separate thread in GSD for more ?

    ETA: Does the Russian federation website state Menshov would be considered for WTT or has he already been promised a spot? Excerpt from the IN article yesterday, which isn't clear on this point:
    The committee referred to Kovtun as a "rapidly progressing sportsman" and cited the uneven performances of late by Voronov, Gachinski and Konstantin Menshov. It did say that Voronov and Menshov would be among the candidates to represent Russia at the 2013 World Team Trophy.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 02-23-2013 at 06:04 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    I guess this should be merged with the other thread. I thought it was a done dirty deal anyway, but oh boy! I don't dislike Kovtun -- he is just unfortunate to be caught up in this However, I hope Kovtun places outside of the top ten at Worlds. Menshov was having a respectable season, and there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't be able to place higher or as high as Kovtun at Worlds. Does the kid have solid quads!? This would be Kovtun's first time at Worlds too, and as a junior-age skater. Russian fed is obviously rushing Kovtun with their eyes set squarely on Sochi Olympics. Oh, the politiking that will be going on in London, Ontario very shortly.

    Figure skating is a difficult enough sport without feds having the power to their skaters around.

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    "In the opinion of experts and the executive committee of the (federation), Kovtun has better chances of getting into the top ten skaters in the world than the other national pretenders," the federation said
    Sorry, I just can't get over the bolded part. National PRETENDERS? Their own federation calling them pretenders.

    Perhaps the federation should be reminded once again of the finishing order at Nationals...coz if Voronov, Menshov and Gachinski are pretenders, that doesn't look so good for Kovtun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Sorry, I just can't get over the bolded part. National PRETENDERS? Their own federation calling them pretenders.

    Perhaps the federation should be reminded once again of the finishing order at Nationals...coz if Voronov, Menshov and Gachinski are pretenders, that doesn't look so good for Kovtun.
    Oh come on. I am sure that something was lost in translation and that the word was initially 'contenders' or something.

    [or what morqet said below ]
    Last edited by Tony Wheeler; 02-23-2013 at 09:33 PM.

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    ^^ Oh come on, Tony, how can you be so sure about that! Yes, it is more likely tho' that the translator confused "pretenders" with "contenders." Or, that if it was said in English, the person misspoke due to not having a good understanding of English vocabulary, or else it was simply a Freudian slip-of-the-tongue.

    In any case, maybe Russian fed PTB thought the pressure on Menshov at the extra event they forced him to compete at, would be so great that he might slip up. But no, Menshov is a consistent jumper with a lot of incentive to show them up.

    At this point, I wonder is there any possibility Menshov might have to compete for another country where he may have distant ancestral ties?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post

    At this point, I wonder is there any possibility Menshov might have to compete for another country where he may have distant ancestral ties?
    As he is 29 years old, I'd say his career is pretty much done after this whole drama. Even if he were to try to skate for another country for next year, he'd have to somehow miraculously get citizenship in less than a year, and he'd also have to rely on someone else from said country to basically earn the spot that he'd steal away come Sochi. He competed on the Grand Prix this year for Russia, so he can't skate in Nebelhorn next year (early-season) for a different country in hopes of earning a spot that way.

    Just clarifying for my own knowledge- singles skaters have to sit out a year from when they last competed internationally, correct? I know it is (was) true of pairs and dancers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Sorry, I just can't get over the bolded part. National PRETENDERS? Their own federation calling them pretenders.

    Perhaps the federation should be reminded once again of the finishing order at Nationals...coz if Voronov, Menshov and Gachinski are pretenders, that doesn't look so good for Kovtun.
    A pretender is an aspirant or claimant to a throne that is now occupied by another. So if we consider that the "throne" is occupied by Plushenko as the current national champion, it's a perfectly valid descriptor & not in the least insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Menshov was having a respectable season, and there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't be able to place higher or as high as Kovtun at Worlds. Does the kid have solid quads!? This would be Kovtun's first time at Worlds too, and as a junior-age skater. Russian fed is obviously rushing Kovtun with their eyes set squarely on Sochi Olympics. Oh, the politiking that will be going on in London, Ontario very shortly.
    He landed a quad in the SP and 2 in the FS at Euros, and a quad in the free at JGPF, so I'd say yeah, he does. FWIW, he's also received a higher international score than Menshov has managed this season, even though he zayaked.

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    ^^ Yeah, okay, morqet thanks for clarifying re variant meaning/ understanding of "pretenders" which has slightly morphed in American usage I suppose.

    So yes the kid, Kovtun, has the almighty quad as a weapon (so important among men these days), and TAT at his side and the powerful Russian fed solidly in force behind him. Now, let's see if he lands those weapons of his under Worlds pressure. (((Sigh))) (so unfortunate for Menshov). Anyways, I guess I should concede that Kid Kovtun is no pretender then, but indeed a contender at Worlds, especially with TAT and Russian fed providing some weighty back-up.

    Kovtun is also a nice looking young chap with wonderful body lines. Still, IMO, he should have been allowed a chance to develop a bit further without all the pressure, scrutiny and the controversial drama. And Menshov's great showing this season should have been honored.


    Thanks for the info, Tony. I believe you are correct re the wait involved when switching countries (and also the citizenship complications coupled with Menshov's age).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler View Post
    Just clarifying for my own knowledge- singles skaters have to sit out a year from when they last competed internationally, correct? I know it is (was) true of pairs and dancers.
    ISU Rule 109 states:
    2. a) In principle, a Skater may compete only as a member of the Member of the country of which he is a citizen.
    b) A Skater may compete for the Member of the country of which he is not a citizen if he fulfils the following conditions:
    i) he has resided for at least one year in that country and has been permitted to compete for that Member by the National Association of the country of which he is a citizen, or he has resided for at least one year in that country and he (or his parents if he is not of age) has applied for citizenship in that country;
    ii) before July 1st immediately prior to his first International Competition as a member of the Member, he has not competed in any International Competition or ISU Championship for another Member during the twelve (12) preceding months;
    iii) before July 1st immediately prior to his first ISU Championship as a member of the Member, he has not competed in any International Competition or ISU Championship for another Member during the eighteen (18) preceding months;

    iv) Any denial of a request for permit by the Member submitted in accordance with sub-paragraph (i) above may be the subject of a request to the Council by the involved Skater or any involved Member for exceptional permission as provided in paragraph 5 of this Rule.
    c) In the case of a Pair Skating or an Ice Dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the Member for which the Pair Skating or Ice Dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b) i), ii), and iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    ISU Rule 109 states:
    So that basically seals the deal for Menshov. If I were him, I don't even know if I would want to attempt competing next season even if Kovtun does earn two spots. It'll probably be a case of "No matter what you do, we have to give Evgeny his last chance and then send someone else that isn't 30," regardless of any results.

    I feel horrible for the guy, honestly.

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    Tragic.

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    Sugar – thank you for starting this thread. I really think this issue deserves one.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    In any case, maybe Russian fed PTB thought the pressure on Menshov at the extra event they forced him to compete at, would be so great that he might slip up. But no, Menshov is a consistent jumper with a lot of incentive to show them up.
    Russian Figure skating officials for sure hoped that Menshov would screw up, but no, once again he didn’t do what fitted into Russian Fed’s plans. Such a bad guy!

    Quote Originally Posted by morqet View Post
    FWIW, he's also received a higher international score than Menshov has managed this season, even though he zayaked.
    That’s simply not true. You probably red too much of Russian Fed’s Propaganda. Here are the personal bests of both skaters this season at international senior events:

    Kovtun: 225,02 at Euros 2013 (with an overscored SP and some questionable GOE on some of his jumps considering his awkward technique!).
    Menshov: 238,63 at NRW Trophy right before Russian Nats (1 Quad in SP, 2 in the LP and he beat European Bronze medallist Brezina there!)

    So even if the Zayak-combo would have counted, Kovtun’s score would still have been below Menshov’s. (This is just for statistics – actually I think mentioning Kovtun zayaked is not a good argument, cause elite skaters should be aware of this rule, of course unless they are Oda. )

    Here is more maths – the average scores of both skaters this season at international competitions (= no Russian Nats or Russian Cup)
    Kovtun: 214,89 (2 JGP, JGPF, Euros) – would have placed him 15th at last worlds, the season’s PB best would have been enough for 10th place.
    Menshov: 223,25 (2 GP, Nebelhorn, NRW) – would have placed him 11th at last Worlds, the season’s PB would have been enough for 7th place.

    Given such statistics it’s a miracle to me, how Russian Fed can argue that with Kovtun they will have higher chances to get 2 spots for Sochi. This in particular when you also consider that Kovtun reached his scores with the Fed supporting him strongly, while Menshov achieved his scores without having any support by his fed, which usually has quite some influence on the marks judges hand out.

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    Menshov has been really consistent! Even the sp at Russian nationals there was a problem but he didn't take himself out and would win bronze over former golden boy gachinski and new golden boy kovtun. Hope kovtun does well otherwise it's really kind of menshov 2- golden boys 0, kind of for this season! kovtun has seen rapid improvement but pre Olympic worlds in Canada Isnt like anything he's ever experienced and he's young so maturity Is questionable. Yeah tarasova is a great coach and coached yagudin and everything but you're just going to trust her and him based on her? Seems like that's the plan!!

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    Poor menshov is as unlucky as Sasha Abt or Ilia Klimkin. Not as talented as the other two but a solid skater and - more importantly - a very determined young man.
    Can you imagine the stubborness it takes to stick at it till you're 30, when the backing of your federation goes, again and again, to some bright young star who flashes and burns, or the old master who's health is failing? I have nothing but admiration for the guy.
    I hope he gets to go to WTT and show the young upstart how it's done.

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    Clearly the Russian fed seems to believe that they don't want to invest in a 30-year old; they would rather give experience to a 17-year old. However, they are playing with fire in a pre-Olympic year. Kovtun is still untested at the senior level. Menshov will not win a medal at worlds, but he gives them a better chance of getting at least 2 spots at the Olympics. I am not at all convinced that Plushenko will make it to worlds this year, or to Sochi next year, no matter how much he wants it. What if Kovtun does not develop? Many Russian men who showed promise in the past did not really make it (latest example: Gachinski). They are making a huge mistake, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Clearly the Russian fed seems to believe that they don't want to invest in a 30-year old; they would rather give experience to a 17-year old. However, they are playing with fire in a pre-Olympic year. Kovtun is still untested at the senior level. Menshov will not win a medal at worlds, but he gives them a better chance of getting at least 2 spots at the Olympics. I am not at all convinced that Plushenko will make it to worlds this year, or to Sochi next year, no matter how much he wants it. What if Kovtun does not develop? Many Russian men who showed promise in the past did not really make it (latest example: Gachinski). They are making a huge mistake, IMO.
    Um, you mean the back surgery hasn't totally convinced you?

    And Gachinski is not a valid example; he's nineteen. He's still a baby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    That’s simply not true. You probably red too much of Russian Fed’s Propaganda. Here are the personal bests of both skaters this season at international senior events:

    Kovtun: 225,02 at Euros 2013 (with an overscored SP and some questionable GOE on some of his jumps considering his awkward technique!).
    Menshov: 238,63 at NRW Trophy right before Russian Nats (1 Quad in SP, 2 in the LP and he beat European Bronze medallist Brezina there!)
    Sorry, I was just going off the ISU season best list. But I don't think Kovtun's SP was overscored at Euros

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Um, you mean the back surgery hasn't totally convinced you?

    And Gachinski is not a valid example; he's nineteen. He's still a baby.
    No, it hasn't because I read that Plushenko is still planning on competing.

    A 19 year old is not a 'baby' in figure skating, Gachinski was a very hyped skater since he was 12, and he did have a good year. He has had a terrible year this season. Some skaters have made comebacks; others have not. I am not writing him off yet, but he has clearly not lived up to the expectations. He may not actually make it to the top, the way he was expected to, when you look at what the current top skaters in the world are doing. He may not have the mental makeup of a champion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    No, it hasn't because I read that Plushenko is still planning on competing.

    A 19 year old is not a 'baby' in figure skating, Gachinski was a very hyped skater since he was 12, and he did have a good year. He has had a terrible year this season. Some skaters have made comebacks; others have not. I am not writing him off yet, but he has clearly not lived up to the expectations. He may not actually make it to the top, the way he was expected to, when you look at what the current top skaters in the world are doing. He may not have the mental makeup of a champion.
    He's not competing at Worlds this year. He's already said that. Mishin's already said that. He's not even going to be back on the ice by the time Worlds comes around.

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