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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Leonova has been ridiculously overmarked. There is no way she deserved those PCS for those weak, uninspired performances and the GOEs were very questionable as well.
    I agree. But if Russian Fed wants a skater to go to Worlds, they'll take any influence they have to make it happen. I'm very sorry for Gosviani. I think she skated well considering that she now had to skate at 4 important competitions in less than 2 months. And it must have been pretty much demotivating that Fed demanded a test skate from her despite she achieved a decent debutant placement at Euros.

    Having said that, It's not like I've never seen bad judging at Russian Nats and so on, but this year Russian Federation is really making a complete fool out of themselves.
    Basically they should stop organizing internal competitions and Russian Nats, as results and spots seem to be fixed anyways. Would help them to save some money that might be used for +

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    When skaters do a toe-loop, (for anti-clockwise skaters) they jump from a RBO edge, with a toe assist from the left foot. The left toe-pick should pick into the ice straight back (though on multi rotational jumps, the toe goes in at a slight angle but more or less still backwards). If a skater toe axels, they'll open the left side up and plant the toe-pick into the ice facing forwards and spring up to the jump from that position, so that it is much more like they have done an axel instead of a double toe (or double axel if it is a triple toe-loop attempt).

    The one skater that stands out as having a toe-axel was Mao's sister Mai Asada. In trying to find footage of her toe-loops I found her world juniors LP from 2003 in which she attempted 3A-2T (i didn't remember Mai trying the 3A too!). If you go to the end of the clip here you can see how she puts the toe in forwards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PcNa89WPaQ
    wow, thanks. I didn't know about Mai's 3A attempt either
    If a skater toe axels, then...does she get the jump downgraded or it only affects the GOE?

  3. #63

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    One of those 4 was because she wasn't even eligible for euros and Russian fed named her anyway lol so she had to earn her way there

  4. #64
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    Those of you who have Korpi on your list can take her off, she has withdrawn.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    If a skater toe axels, then...does she get the jump downgraded or it only affects the GOE?
    It should be both but callers and judges always ignore it.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLIVER View Post
    Gold's free at US nationals was the best jumping display I have ever seen bar Harding (and that includes Ito and kim).
    Really? I'm surprised to hear you say that, I always considered you a knowledgable fan (and talented skater yourself IIRC) but that is an outrageous statement.

    The way she sets up her jumps, the height and width she manages and even the way she picks her toe in, down to the sound it makes, remind me a lot of Harding. REMINDS being be the operative word here.

    She has a super 3 lutz/3 toe combo for sure....but aside from that? Does she even have a proper flip? To suggest that it was better than ITO 89, Kim 10, hell Arakawa 04, Kostner 03, Slutskaya 00 GPF nevermind the likes of Asada, Ando, Sotnikova or Tuk at their best.... national bias, perhaps. Jump for jump, the only thing she has on the likes of Malinina 99 is the fact that she can tack a 3 toe on the lutz and axel. Personally, I find her height impressive (although, I've never seen her live) and her solid edge really impressive on the way out of successful passes, but she has a delayed bent knee action that I find jarring, strange arms in and out and very deliberate set ups.

    I do think she COULD continue to become an exceptional jumper but for my money at least, she's certainly not in the company that you suggest.

  7. #67
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    Korobeinikova is depressing to me and not just because of the Otonal music. But, she had moments of genius at this competition, and then throws it away with stupid mistakes and the self esteem of an OES who was beaten by Mojca Kopac at a national championships. You were 2nd in the free at europeans woman, have some confidence. grr

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P7aT...Ic4UQ&index=11 -- her performance in the lp at this event.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Really? I'm surprised to hear you say that, I always considered you a knowledgable fan (and talented skater yourself IIRC) but that is an outrageous statement.

    The way she sets up her jumps, the height and width she manages and even the way she picks her toe in, down to the sound it makes, remind me a lot of Harding. REMINDS being be the operative word here.

    She has a super 3 lutz/3 toe combo for sure....but aside from that? Does she even have a proper flip? To suggest that it was better than ITO 89, Kim 10, hell Arakawa 04, Kostner 03, Slutskaya 00 GPF nevermind the likes of Asada, Ando, Sotnikova or Tuk at their best.... national bias, perhaps. Jump for jump, the only thing she has on the likes of Malinina 99 is the fact that she can tack a 3 toe on the lutz and axel. Personally, I find her height impressive (although, I've never seen her live) and her solid edge really impressive on the way out of successful passes, but she has a delayed bent knee action that I find jarring, strange arms in and out and very deliberate set ups.

    I do think she COULD continue to become an exceptional jumper but for my money at least, she's certainly not in the company that you suggest.
    The only way to explain Sliver's post is National Bias. According to her, only Harding belongs in the select company of Gracie Gold; not even Ito the best jumper ever qualifies? Her 1989 worlds, 1990 worlds, 1991 Trophy Lalique are far superior to Gold's performance at the nationals. It's not even close.

    Yu na Kim's 2010 Oly does not match up with Gold according to Sliver. This is the most biased post I have ever read.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P7aT...Ic4UQ&index=11 -- her performance in the lp at this event.
    If she would have taken off for that opening Lutz just half a second earlier, I would have had even more serious Butyrskaya flashbacks than I already do

    Anyways, re: Gold. It bothers me that all of these amazing jumps come from near-isolation. It's like she's in a practice session-- forgetting all the choreography and any movements the second she turns the corner for a jump that might happen five or ten seconds later. I'd be tempted to hold her to a +1 maximum for GOE because of it. Imagine if she'd have any trace of steps into or out of the jumps.

  10. #70

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    It depends on what you prioritize. If you hate leg wraps, well, that's a mark against Ito. If you feel female skaters must show at least 5 kinds of triples, that's a mark against Kim. If you don't care about edge mistakes that actually make the jump more difficult, well then you won't mind Gold's lipping.

    When comparing skaters who competed under different scoring systems, I do think credit should be given for the stricter judging standard applied to today's skaters. It's one thing to try every kind of triple when no one was nitpicking your takeoff edges or your rotations. To try every kind of triple under COP requires more chutzpah, imo.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    The only way to explain Sliver's post is National Bias. According to her, only Harding belongs in the select company of Gracie Gold; not even Ito the best jumper ever qualifies? Her 1989 worlds, 1990 worlds, 1991 Trophy Lalique are far superior to Gold's performance at the nationals. It's not even close.

    Yu na Kim's 2010 Oly does not match up with Gold according to Sliver. This is the most biased post I have ever read.
    Him and he's not American so you're wrong.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Korobeinikova is depressing to me and not just because of the Otonal music. But, she had moments of genius at this competition, and then throws it away with stupid mistakes and the self esteem of an OES who was beaten by Mojca Kopac at a national championships. You were 2nd in the free at europeans woman, have some confidence. grr

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P7aT...Ic4UQ&index=11 -- her performance in the lp at this event.
    She's a 16 year old girl...having confidence is difficult for most girls this age who aren't competing in skimpy outfits that are televised while having the pressure of delivering constantly because the Nation you're representing happens to be arguably the strongest in the world in this sport and discipline at this time. And I know, I know, she chose to be a figure skater and what not...but the point is, she is young she can still bounce back and has time to develop confidence and a kick-ass diva tude to go along with her killer skating . Maybe she needs a coaching change....Morozov? Hmm, except maybe not, I'd be worried she'd be his next target should anything go wrong with Ilynikh . But in all seriousness, much as I love Volchkova and her skating, she was a bit of a headcase throughout her competitive career so I do wonder about her coaching abilities in regards to the psychological/competitive aspect of the sport, especially when you are coaching a young fragile skater like Korobeynikova.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    But in all seriousness, much as I love Volchkova and her skating, she was a bit of a headcase throughout her competitive career so I do wonder about her coaching abilities in regards to the psychological/competitive aspect of the sport, especially when you are coaching a young fragile skater like Korobeynikova.
    Given her group of skaters, I think it would be pretty coincidental to say that Vika COACHES headcase skaters. Rather, she FOSTERS headcase skaters. I don't want her to lose her charges, but if she could find a male counterpart coach, someone who could assist with the mental side - maybe Shabulin/Marinin. Someone that might influence her girls and give them confidence.

    RE ZIGGY, I had a feeling Sliver was British, and of course, he's entitled to his opinion on Gracie Gold. Perhaps she did have the second best technical performance of all time (although I find that sentence even amusing to type ). Sometimes I just don't see things the way others do, but I will watch Gold closer in future and am open to being won over.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater91 View Post
    Yay! Although with the current field of ladies I really dont see any 3rd Russian Lady breaking top ten unless she skates both programs clean!

    This is my prediction with Leonova.....

    1. Yuna Kim
    2. Mao Asada
    3. Carolina Kostner
    4. Akiko Suzuki
    5. Elizaveta Tuktamisheva
    6. Ashley Wagner
    7. Kanako Murakami
    8. Adelina Sotnikova
    9. Kiira Korpi
    10. Valentina Marchei
    11. Gracie Gold
    12. Alena Leonova
    13. Zijun Li
    14. Kaetlyn Osmond
    Suzuki is not finishing that high. Murakami is also not likely at all to finish that high. Korpi has already withdrawn from Worlds. Marchei is not finishing in the top 10. Osmond will definitely be higher than that unless she blows badly, and Leonova definitely has potential to be higher than that but it depends how she skates.

    With Worlds in Canada I would say the odds of Osmond finishing above say Suzuki are 40-45%, there is no way they will be 10 spots apart.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Suzuki is not finishing that high. Murakami is also not likely at all to finish that high. Korpi has already withdrawn from Worlds. Marchei is not finishing in the top 10. Osmond will definitely be higher than that unless she blows badly, and Leonova definitely has potential to be higher than that but it depends how she skates.

    With Worlds in Canada I would say the odds of Osmond finishing above say Suzuki are 40-45%, there is no way they will be 10 spots apart.
    With worlds in Canada, I expect a top 10 finish for Osmond, if she skates nearly clean. I don't see Marchei, Li and Leonova finishing higher than her, unless she makes multiple mistakes. Korpii has already withdrawn, which means #10 or better for Osmond. Sotnikova and Murakami are likely to make mistakes, and possibly Liza, but Osmond may not be able to beat Sot and Liza. I thinkSuzuki will place high (4-5)

    This ladies field is looking pretty good.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    The only way to explain Sliver's post is National Bias. According to her, only Harding belongs in the select company of Gracie Gold; not even Ito the best jumper ever qualifies? Her 1989 worlds, 1990 worlds, 1991 Trophy Lalique are far superior to Gold's performance at the nationals. It's not even close.

    Yu na Kim's 2010 Oly does not match up with Gold according to Sliver. This is the most biased post I have ever read.
    Oh dear, not even going to bother with your post, save to say I am not a 13 y old American girl. Thanks.

    In response to other replies, namely poths. She landed seven beautiful triples, the lutzes were absolutely enormous, the triple lutz/toe perfection. Both passes had very little preparation for jumps of such difficulty. She had more speed coming out of the second lutz than going on. Ditto with the double axel triple toe combo, so much air time, and such flow coming out of the landing. Footwork before the triple salchow. What is there to criticise in her jumping, that she might have an 'e' going into the flip? I think if we were using e and > >> in years gone by, amazing jumpers might have suffered from those too.

    I prefer her jumps to Ito yes, it is a personal thing, I never liked Ito's wrapped free leg. If we are going to get pedantic, Ito needed half the rink preparation to pull off a triple lutz and had a massive wrap.

    As regards to girls you mentioned poths, I am sorry but it is simply not true. When was the last time Asada landed 7 clean triples and 2 of them in combo. Asada doesnt have a lutz and the salchow appears once for Christmas. Of course she has the triple axel, but her jumps are no where near the same size, speed or flow coming out.

    Ando's jumps were v good but she doesnt have the speed or the cleanliness in rotation, her jumps were much closer to be called > or >> especially. She did attempt some beautiful triple lutz/loop combos. Ditto for Sotnikova.

    Kostner when was the last time she hit 7 clean triples and lutz/toe combo, ever? Even at her best her lutz was very inconsistent. I can understand using Ito or even Kim as a barometer but not the girls you mentioned.

    7 triples with lutz/toe combo, most of the girls you mentioned have rarely, if ever, put that together, not with this cleanliness and height. Even recently when they hit 6/7 triples, they will leave one of their least favourite ones out. Even if you were to say Gold landed only 6 clean triples because of the 'e', it is still a legendary jumping display. The height, ease and lack of preparation...

    As for Kim's 'amazing' olympic performance, it was 6 triples and not even an attempt at the triple loop, so I am sorry but my statement is very easily supported and really not so out there. If the USA's over hype of Gold is bothering people already, thats really not my problem.
    Last edited by SLIVER; 02-23-2013 at 07:13 PM.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLIVER View Post

    I prefer her jumps to Ito yes, it is a personal thing,
    That it is and each to their own. Although I find the Ito comparison verging on insane.

    As regards to girls you mentioned poths, I am sorry but it is simply not true.
    With all due respect, you seem to be lacking recall skills.
    I have been very specific with my examples.

    As for Kim's 'amazing' olympic performance, it was 6 triples and not even an attempt at the triple loop, so I am sorry but my statement is very easily supported and really not so out there.
    The lack of respect for the technical quality of this performance is bizarre. You're right, it wasnt amazing, it was mundane, verging on shite...Gold would have won TES in Vancouver!

  18. #78

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    I must confess I didnt get that last part about Kim, do I sense sarcasm
    I certainly never insinuated her perf was mundane, I did mention her in my original post alongside Ito and Harding. Is there a massive reason why if Gold was in contention and there was no goe inflation or deflation, she wouldnt have been right up there on the TES? I am assuming with an extra triple her TES base, before GOE, would have been higher than Kim's, even though that was not my original point at all.

    You are missing my point and we are not going to keep playing a game of back and forth. All I am saying is, Gold's performance was certainly comparable to the best, I am definitely not trying to convince you it was the best. Obviously Ito revolutionised jumping.

    I remember the skates you mention well. I was there when Arakawa won and she is probably my favourite female skater ever but if we want to nit pick, as they do today, we can. Was the toe after the lutz full rotated and is her flip worthy of an 'e' or not etcetc...

    Kostner, I am assuming you are talking about Malmo, if I remember well it was incredible skate but 6 triples no? Obviously with 3 huge combinations, it could be worth more but nevertheless 7 triples of Gold's quality in one skate is very rare.
    Last edited by SLIVER; 02-24-2013 at 12:10 AM.

  19. #79
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    Alas, we can only hope Gracie can repeat. She has a tendency to let her nerves get the best of her, especially in the short. But, it is so refreshing to see female skaters who can actually rotate those jumps and get more than 3 inches off the ice. I hope that the last four years will fade away and the next quad will be all the young Russians, Canadians and Gracie promise.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

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    Well, I can't comment how Gold skated at US nationals, but I saw her at 4CC and I must admit I was a bit disappointed. If she skates like that at Worlds, she will be lucky if she ends up in the first 10.

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