The value of a European versus Four Continents title/medal

[gkelly]

If 4cc's were held as early as Europeans, perhaps more skaters would go. But that would mean US and Canadian Nationals would need to be held earlier. Perhaps the North American Nationals could be in December,

This is unlikely to happen, at least in the US, for reasons that have nothing to do with how USFS perceives the value of Four Continents.

US Nationals is the culmination of a three-part qualifying process for singles skaters (two parts for pairs and dance) through regionals in October and sectionals in November. It would be disruptive to the schedules of a majority of competitors to move regionals any earlier.

Holidays in December would make scheduling Nationals during that month tricky.

They have to consider the availability of appropriate arenas and the way the television network they have a contract with (currently NBC) wants to cover Nationals.

If the TV network were enthusiastic enough about December broadcasts to offer a lot more money, that would be a more likely impetus to change the scheduling. But the other issues that would be effected by the change would still need to be addressed.

[Zemgirl]

On the opposite side, I can remember skaters going to Europeans under circumstances where they probably should've just skipped it for health reasons. I remember Gerboldt going to Europeans with a drain in her nose, and Shabalin getting back on the ice way too soon after surgery so he could go to Europeans.

She did, in 2009. In addition to Shabalin, there's also Plushenko this year. I'm not sure Joubert should have rushed his comeback from a foot injury in 2009-10, for that matter.

You talk about people missing their Nationals rather than Euros but that just can't happen in the US or Japan. You miss your Nationals in those countries and you don't get sent to 4CCs! The fields are too deep. In Europe, as was mentioned, there are countries that use Euros to pick their Worlds teams or that combine with other countries to have a decent Nationals and who invite skaters from other countries to their Nationals to make them more competitive. This completely changes the landscape which changes the strategy.

It is possible to get medical byes, and I believe for Japanese skaters GP results are also taken into account. I don't think the fields in Japan, the US and Canada are always deep across the board as you suggest. I'm thinking of this season's US pairs field, the Japanese pairs and dance fields in general, Canadian ladies, etc.

As for Nationals in Europe, it's true that only Russia has a lot of depth, but there have been times when Nationals in other countries did have a major effect on the teams for major events - the French men in Olympic seasons and the Italian ladies in the 2006 season come to mind. I can't think of any European countries that invite people from other countries to Nationals to make them more competitive. The Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland due hold Nationals together because they don't have deep fields and this saves money, and France occasionally has invited skaters (who don't appear in the official results). That's the closest I can think of.

As to high level participation, the only discipline where 4CCs is noticeably weaker to Euros in recent years is pairs, and that's because of the retirement / injury of the Chinese pairs. But then 4CCs has a much stronger dance field.

It has the top two teams in the world. Beyond that, the field is comparable to Euros, only smaller - except in Olympic seasons, when the two events are hardly equal. The only discipline in which 4CC is consistently stronger is ladies, though I think the Euros fields may finally be improving in terms of depth and not just at the very top.

[IceIceBaby]

I think one problem with 4cc is that those continents participating have nothing in common. In Europe, at least the skaters come from the same continent and the atmosphere in those competitions are often very cozy and warm. Many European TV channels show broadcast it and there is no time zone problems for example. The competition has a long history and that has also made it a very prestigious.

[antmanb]

I think one problem with 4cc is that those continents participating have nothing in common. In Europe, at least the skaters come from the same continent and the atmosphere in those competitions are often very cozy and warm.

But coming from the same continent is only as relevant as saying we're all from the same planet....the difference in culture, language between the nations that compete at Europeans couldn't be more different - in that respect it's exactly the same as 4CCs.

Many European TV channels show broadcast it and there is no time zone problems for example.

The time difference between the UK and Moscow e.g. is 4 hours, so "prime time" is not prime time all across Europe. I'm not really sure that this is particularly relevant in terms of prestige of a competition

[IceIceBaby]

No, time difference is not relevant for prestige but it is one of the reason's why Europeans are so popular, because it is possible to watch them live from all of the participating countries. If Europeans were held every year for example in Australia, I think over the time their popularity would decrease. And popularity increases prestige. I hope you understand my point.

[morqet]

No, time difference is not relevant for prestige but it is one of the reason's why Europeans are so popular, because it is possible to watch them live from all of the participating countries. If Europeans were held every year for example in Australia, I think over the time their popularity would decrease. And popularity increases prestige. I hope you understand my point.

It isn't. Viewers in a lot of countries are at the mercy of Eurosport & their scheduling around the Australian Open, so Euros is reduced to highlight packages, live for just the last group in the free skate, and maybe coverage of the gala. I actually was able to watch more of 4 Continents on tv than I would have been able to watch of Euros if I hadn't actually gone to the event.

[allezfred]

But then 4CCs has a much stronger dance field.

Did you watch the 4CC dance event at all?

There was a huge gap between the Top 5 teams and the rest in terms of strength.

[TheIronLady]

Did you watch the 4CC dance event at all?

There was a huge gap between the Top 5 teams and the rest in terms of strength.

Dance is one of the events where the bottom competitors are sometimes very popular with the audience, but there is no danger of that at Four Continents.

[senorita]

Re inviting skaters, I remember Borodulin had once skated at Estonian Nationals and I was wondering what he was doing there.

[TheIronLady]

Off topic, but I believe that some countries have invited a foreign "guest" to compete at their nationals. Are there any European countries that do this?

Only example I know offhand is Australia: they had Ukranian Iryna Movchan compete in ladies at their 2011-2012 Nationals.

[briancoogaert]

Off topic, but I believe that some countries have invited a foreign "guest" to compete at their nationals. Are there any European countries that do this?

Only example I know offhand is Australia: they had Ukranian Iryna Movchan compete in ladies at their 2011-2012 Nationals.

German skaters competed at French Nationals back around 2004 (IIRC)

[Zemgirl]

German skaters competed at French Nationals back around 2004 (IIRC)

There was an American man there this year (Alexander Zahradnicek), no idea why - he wasn't all that competitive, and they do have their obvious top skaters right now.

[Aussie Willy]

Off topic, but I believe that some countries have invited a foreign "guest" to compete at their nationals. Are there any European countries that do this?

Only example I know offhand is Australia: they had Ukranian Iryna Movchan compete in ladies at their 2011-2012 Nationals.

She competed at the 2011 Nationals.

International skaters can always compete at Australian Nationals and there is always a large contingent from New Zealand. They just cannot take the title and it has to go to the best placed Australian skater.

[Nomad]

I vaguely remember a British skater competing in the men's event at Hungarian nationals - David Richardson, maybe?

[Sylvia]

There was an American man there this year (Alexander Zahradnicek), no idea why - he wasn't all that competitive, and they do have their obvious top skaters right now.

I heard Zahradnicek was released by USFS to skate in/for France. I believe one of his coaches is former French competitor Vincent Restencourt, but I don't know if that is a (primary) reason for his switch.

Shantel Jordan/Jeremy Barrett (they won their U.S. junior pair title in 2004) were invited to and won French Nationals in the 2004-05 season. She was too young to compete internationally as a junior and reportedly this was arranged as a way for the pair to gain experience competing abroad.

[Zemgirl]

I heard Zahradnicek was released by USFS to skate in/for France. I believe one of his coaches is former French competitor Vincent Restencourt, but I don't know if that is a (primary) reason for his switch.

He'll have to skate much better than he did at Nationals if he wants to get any international assignments.

Shantel Jordan/Jeremy Barrett (they won their U.S. junior pair title in 2004) were invited to and won French Nationals in the 2004-05 season. She was too young to compete internationally as a junior and reportedly this was arranged as a way for the pair to gain experience competing abroad.

I don't think they won French Nats in the sense that they were considered the French Champions - more like what Aussie Willy described re Australian Nationals.

[TheIronLady]

Sorry to get us off topic, but I find this very interesting by itself, and I think it ties into how nationals can vary greatly between different countries.

It's great that some nationals open themselves up to willing participants from abroad because I'm sure it's a good opportunity to practice in front of professional judges and an audience.

[gkelly]

Judges are not professionals

[Aussie Willy]

It's great that some nationals open themselves up to willing participants from abroad because I'm sure it's a good opportunity to practice in front of professional judges and an audience.

Please tell me where I can get paid to do judging. Usually costs me a lot more money than anything I get back to cover costs.

[leafygreens]

Now that US, Canada, Japan and China all send their top skaters to 4CCs, I think 4CCs really is as prestigious as Euros.

But why is Ashley not going this year?