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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorac View Post
    The autopsy has already shown Reeva had an empty bladder and no other injuries on her other than the gun shots so the cricket bat does not appear to have been used on her and could have been used as Oscar says when he realised in horror he may have shoot Reeva.
    I'm going to come across like a piss-fetishist since I keep harping on this one point, but I don't think it is unreasonable for a wounded person to release all muscle control, yet still be alive for a time.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    But aren't you contradicting yourself with these two statements - you believe that Reeva would have to turn on lights because the house is so dark, and yet you expect Pistorius to have his eyes adjusted to the dark and look for her? If your eyes are adjusted to the dark - it applies to both, if you expect that lights have to be turned on to see then again it must apply to both equally no?
    It's his story, not mines. If the house is SO dark to the point that he doesn't realize the person sleeping next to him isn't there, I would assume she would have turned on the lights to go to the bathroom. And, bedrooms have windows. Hallways and bathrooms perhaps don't. Regardless, use common sense. Going to the bathroom during the night isn't abnormal. If during the night you hear a noise that alarms you and someone is spending the night, the first thing you do is see if it's that person.

    Sheesh, with the comments here, there's almost no question the guy will walk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    Sheesh, with the comments here, there's almost no question the guy will walk.
    Of course, because FSUers will be the ones deciding on Pistorious's guilt or innocence.

    I don't know what standard of proof is required in South Africa, but in many places, guilt should be proven beyond reasonable doubt. At this point, there a lot we don't yet know and a police investigation that has not inspired confidence. This may change, or it may not. But just like we shouldn't rush to absolve Pistorious of blame, neither should we rush to declare him guilty of a truly sickening crime without having access to all the relevant evidence and information.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    I'm going to come across like a piss-fetishist since I keep harping on this one point, but I don't think it is unreasonable for a wounded person to release all muscle control, yet still be alive for a time.
    Wouldn't this be somewhat easy to figure out though- she was in clothing. If she was hiding in the bathroom and lost control of her bladder, her clothes should easily tell that tale.

    If she was purposefully going to the toilet, it is unlikely she would have more than a drop, if any, of urine on her.

  5. #245
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    Honestly I think the presence or not of pee is a red herring. I think any circumstance could point to either her voluntarily going into the toilet room, or being chased in there, whether to pee or to hide. For example, say she didn't have to pee but rather was chased to the toilet or ran there because Oscar was coming after her. What if Oscar is telling the truth, and she awoke when he got out of bed and was moving the fan, and headed to the bathroom to get a drink of water or an aspirin? Then, when she's in the bathroom, Oscar hears noises and shouts out about an intruder, so - perhaps even glancing back and seeing Oscar's silhouette and/or the open patio window - she runs into the toilet, locks the door and hides quietly, hoping to stay safe.

    Same as the locked door - IMO I don't think the question of pee supports or detracts from either Oscar's or the prosecution's case.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Wouldn't this be somewhat easy to figure out though- she was in clothing. If she was hiding in the bathroom and lost control of her bladder, her clothes should easily tell that tale.
    Sure, which is why I asked earlier whether that evidence was found. It's only one detail, but could be a telling one regardless.

  7. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    I agree with Desperado - even if you live in a high crime area and have had direct threats on your life, I still think one's first thought on hearing noise in the bathroom at night is that someone simply got up to pee. And even if I was thrown by a window I don't remember leaving open, I'd still verify where my spouse was before I jumped to any conclusions, and certainly before I started shooting at an unseen target.
    When you are used to someone sleeping next to you every night, yes, it does seem unreasonable to not think of where they are first. But when you are used to sleeping alone, it may take you some time to be awake enough to remember you are not alone this time.

    However, his statement says he didn't realize Reeva was not in bed, so my thoughts seem not to be the case. I imagine that the whole tragedy happened so incredibly quick.
    I'm honest, just not always in a nice way

  8. #248
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    Agree that when one first wakes up it sometimes takes a moment to remember where you are, what day it is etc. But in his own words, he seemed to be fully aware that she was there, and even gave thought to how an intruder could have entered the bathroom:

    I heard a noise in the bathroom and realized someone was in the bathroom.

    I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There were no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetics legs on, I have mobility on my stumps.

    I believed someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9 mm pistol from underneath my bed.

    On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.
    And, he is trying to make the case that she was in bed, but then moved to the toilet:

    With the benefit of hindsight, I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out on the balcony to bring the fan in.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorac View Post
    Many people on this thread are assuming Reeva locked herself in the toilet in the bathroom to get away from Pistorius however could she have been locking herself in because she heard Oscar shout out there was an intruder in the bathroom. She could have been sitting on the toilet with the door shut having a pee when she heard Oscar yelling about an intruder in the bathroom - a room she would have to go through to escape the intruder. She locks the toilet door and doesn't shout anything to Oscar as she was scared to let the intruder know she was there!! Oscar comes in and sees the door shut - maybe even hears the lock being turned. He assumes the intruder is in there and is fearful the intruder has a gun and will shoot through the door at Oscar so he shoots first - 4 shots not being that excessive in the heat of the moment.
    Right, so I ask again--wouldn't she likely have been right behind the door or turning away from the door rather than on or by the toilet in that case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Honestly I think the presence or not of pee is a red herring.
    I think the point is that her bladder would only have been empty if she had just emptied it. Your bladder is rarely empty and wouldn't likely be empty in the middle of the night because urine would be filling it as you sleep.

    Like heckles said, however, there may be reasons for that. Or not.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  10. #250
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    But an empty bladder could support either case, no? The defense could say that she must have gotten up while he was on the balcony and used the toilet? Or the prosecution could suggest that Reeva had got up to use the toilet, and Oscar had seized the opportunity to gun her down while she was trapped in a confined space?

    And similarly, if the bladder was not empty, it still works for either side - that either she ran into the bathroom to hide from Oscar or an intruder, or that she was on her way to the toilet when Oscar shot her.

    I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong - just trying all the angles.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I think the point is that her bladder would only have been empty if she had just emptied it.
    Isn't it fairly common for one's bladder to empty upon death?
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckSk8r View Post
    When you are used to someone sleeping next to you every night, yes, it does seem unreasonable to not think of where they are first. But when you are used to sleeping alone, it may take you some time to be awake enough to remember you are not alone this time.
    I suppose it depends on how often Pistorius slept alone. If he and Reeva had been virtually inseparable since November when they got together, or he had women frequently spend the night before he met Reeva or even after he was already involved with Reeva, he should have been used to having another person using his bathroom.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    Isn't it fairly common for one's bladder to empty upon death?
    Does it? I know it is often remarked that the bowels release. Do you contract the muscle to hold pee in, or contract it to let it out? If you have to always keep it contracted, then on death, it would release too.

    Still, if it happened after death, since she was clothed that night, it should be easy to find out if she emptied her bladder or if death did.

    I agree with others who have pointed out the bladder issue is a moot point and can be used as a positive or negative to either side.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    But an empty bladder could support either case, no? The defense could say that she must have gotten up while he was on the balcony and used the toilet? Or the prosecution could suggest that Reeva had got up to use the toilet, and Oscar had seized the opportunity to gun her down while she was trapped in a confined space?

    And similarly, if the bladder was not empty, it still works for either side - that either she ran into the bathroom to hide from Oscar or an intruder, or that she was on her way to the toilet when Oscar shot her.
    Since the bladder was empty, the latter would be moot. And to the best of my knowledge, the prosecutor hasn't said anything about Oscar taking advantage of her going into the bathroom to gun her down, but maybe I've missed a chapter somewhere in all the reports. All I have seen is that the prosecutor's theory is that she ran in the bathroom and locked the door to hide from a threatening Oscar.

    An empty bladder would be evidence that she had not gone to the bathroom to hide. That's why the defense would consider it an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    Isn't it fairly common for one's bladder to empty upon death?
    Yes, and as has been pointed out, that would be evident from her clothing. Or not.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  15. #255

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    I heard an interview with a forensic pathology expert last night, and he said that the empty bladder doesn't mean much.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Since the bladder was empty, the latter would be moot. And to the best of my knowledge, the prosecutor hasn't said anything about Oscar taking advantage of her going into the bathroom to gun her down, but maybe I've missed a chapter somewhere in all the reports. All I have seen is that the prosecutor's theory is that she ran in the bathroom and locked the door to hide from a threatening Oscar.

    An empty bladder would be evidence that she had not gone to the bathroom to hide. That's why the defense would consider it an issue.
    Given that the lead detective has just been replaced, and that the general view is that the defense has already begun successfully tearing apart the prosecution's case, I'm guessing they are going to sure they've covered all the possibilities by the time this goes to trial.

    You're right, I haven't seen anything that suggests that Oscar used her trip to the toilet as an opportunity to kill her; but if the defense makes a strong case that her bladder being empty means that she was not chased but rather went into the toilet room for another, innocent reason, then the prosecution will need to cast doubt on that by presenting other possible scenarios that implicate Oscar, no?

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Given that the lead detective has just been replaced, and that the general view is that the defense has already begun successfully tearing apart the prosecution's case, I'm guessing they are going to sure they've covered all the possibilities by the time this goes to trial.
    I suppose it's better that they've replaced this detective rather than stubbornly kept him. One of the biggest mistakes of the OJ Simpson case was the prosecution's use of Mark Fuhrman's testimony when they were already aware that the guy was questionable.

  18. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Right, so I ask again--wouldn't she likely have been right behind the door or turning away from the door rather than on or by the toilet in that case?
    It depends. If she locked the door and took a step back and was then hit by bullets she could have been knocked back onto the toilet seat and not been right by the door or turning away. It isn't a large space so that is perfectly feasible scenerio.

    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post

    Sheesh, with the comments here, there's almost no question the guy will walk.
    Er no - we are just commenting on the evidence thus far presented and as more comes out I am more unsure of the exact nature of the incident. When this comes to full trial there will be many more arguments put forwards that will swing opinion both ways - either it was a tragic accident or if was a viscious murder - as yet I am unclear which it was.

  19. #259

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    Based on whatever we know, I don’t see how they prove motive that Pistorius wanted her dead. I don’t think he wanted her dead. The most likely scenario to me is the roid rage angle, or he is another hot head with a gun. I think either case should bring with it some charge but a lesser charge than murder.
    What would Jenny do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    Based on whatever we know, I don’t see how they prove motive that Pistorius wanted her dead. I don’t think he wanted her dead. The most likely scenario to me is the roid rage angle, or he is another hot head with a gun. I think either case should bring with it some charge but a lesser charge than murder.
    This puzzles me too. They had only been together a few months, and apparently were not living together full time, so it doesn't seem possible that this was something building over time. Nor would there be any monetary gain etc.

    If he really did kill her deliberately, she might have threatened him in some way - knowing something he didn't want known for example. But again, they knew each other a short time, and there doesn't seem to be any reason for her to want to do that.

    I don't know enough about "roid rage" but I do wonder what's inside the head of someone who is highly competitive, and whose fame might have gone to his head. We see it sometimes with politicians - it's almost like they think they are superhuman and above the moral code that the rest of us follow. And you get people like Tiger Woods, who apparently have it all and yet still do something stupid and destructive.

    But then I also have trouble understanding gang members who kill each other based on something as small as a perceived insult, or because it makes them feel more powerful in some way. Oscar lives in a different culture than most of us here; maybe the value of human life is different for him, and he needs a lot less reason to kill someone than we would. After all, even if he didn't deliberately kill Reeva, he apparently had little trouble killing an intruder who had not threatened his life or hers, who was unseen, whose potential for violence was unknown, and whose motive for entering the house was also unknown to Oscar. And yet, just being in the house was by Oscar's own admission all he needed to know to shoot him.

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