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  1. #281
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    I'm really confused by SA procedures. (Or maybe I don't know my own countries very well.)

    Does the guilt of the person have -anything- to do with whether or not they get bail? I thought it was only if they were a flight risk? Or does the judge also weigh where he thinks the verdict will be placed to determine if bail is granted? Because it seemed like this hearing was entirely about the presumed guilt of Pistorius, and not whether he was likely to leave the country.

  2. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorac View Post
    It felt much longer
    I listened to this rambling magistrate go on and on...likes the sound of his own voice.
    Bloom where you're planted. Hillary Clinton

  3. #283

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    You know, if these are the conditions that people with disabilities face in South African jails, then it's a good thing that a person whose guilt has not yet been proven will not have to go there. It sounds appalling - even if someone is guilty, and certainly when it's a prisoner awaiting trial.
    They talked about this on CNN. It was the first time I felt really sorry for Pistorius.
    Figure skating is hard.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post

    Does the guilt of the person have -anything- to do with whether or not they get bail? I thought it was only if they were a flight risk?
    I think whether or not they are a threat to society or will try to tamper with witnesses also comes into play.
    3539 and counting.

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  5. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I'm really confused by SA procedures. (Or maybe I don't know my own countries very well.)

    Does the guilt of the person have -anything- to do with whether or not they get bail? I thought it was only if they were a flight risk? Or does the judge also weigh where he thinks the verdict will be placed to determine if bail is granted? Because it seemed like this hearing was entirely about the presumed guilt of Pistorius, and not whether he was likely to leave the country.
    I think it was more about determining what exactly he was charged with which then affects the terms of his bail - the prosection wanted him to be charged with a schedule 6 offence (premeditated murder), which automatically means he can't be granted bail. It seems they had to show in the hearing that there were valid reasons for pushing for a charge of that magnitude & the defence had to counter that it was culpable homicide or whatever the equivalent is in South Africa, which is why we've already heard so much about the case instead of just the question of flight risk & potential to reoffend whilst on bail.
    Last edited by morqet; 02-22-2013 at 04:57 PM.

  6. #286
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    the decision is more a result of a pressure killer
    I stand by pistorius being guilty

  7. #287

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    Quote Originally Posted by love_skate2011 View Post
    the decision is more a result of a pressure killer
    I stand by pistorius being guilty
    But guilt of what - pre-meditated murder or accidental murder (or whatever the lesser charge is in SA)? Yes he did kill her - we all acknowledge that - but did he mean to and did he plan it? That is what the prosecution is going to try to prove. I suspect they will lower that expectation and try to get him on a lesser murder charge now.

    And who pressured who? The presiding judge went into excrutiating detail why he decided to allow bail and to be honest I understand why he gave it in the end - and if you listen to the judge he could have gone either way as to the bail application - I changed ny mind several times whilst listening to him. But the conditions are steep - the 1M Rand is exceedingly high by all accounts as is the not drinking aspect as it doesn't appear Oscar was under the influence when he shot Reeva. Still it's not as if he has been found innocent - just that he doesn't have to be locked away before the trial.

  8. #288

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    The thing that sticks out to me (again) is that he apparently didn’t even stop to consider his guest might be the one using the bathroom, nor did he think of her safety. If he did think of her safety, he would have *verified* she was safe before going after whomever was in the bathroom. That IMO indicates a very self-absorbed ego. Not that I think that in and of itself should convict him of any crimes but it makes me think he is a bit of a jerk.
    When people panic, they are not rational. They don't go through this thought process. Self preservation is not self-absorbed ego. What happened was tragic, and unless there is more information- accepted/proven in the court of law- I am not going to make a judgment on Pistorius.

  9. #289
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    Interesting that a South African story has such legs in the US.

  10. #290

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Interesting that a South African story has such legs in the US.

    People love a train wreck.
    “Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none.” William Shakespeare

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    People love a train wreck.
    I'd be interested in what drives the international fascination in this case, and I'm not asking that in a pseudo-aloof, "I don't care about this story so you shouldn't either" way.

  12. #292
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    I think part of it, and this is going to sound really shallow in the face of someone losing their life and another potentially living with the guilt of a horrible mistake for the rest of their life, is that this is one of those cases that sounds like a murder mystery novel or a tv crime drama. It has the elements - the beautiful victim, the famous suspect, the multitude of clues and potential scenarios, the importance of the floorplan, the differing accounts of what happened, the bumbling detectives, and the opportunity for us to try and figure out the answer to the puzzle. It's Lindbergh, JonBenet, Jeffrey MacDonald, even going back to Constance Kent in the 1800s.

    And given that short of Oscar confessing there will always be some question as to whether he really meant to do it or not, I think this one is likely to be debated for some time - there will no doubt be books written, and before long websites like this.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    I'd be interested in what drives the international fascination in this case, and I'm not asking that in a pseudo-aloof, "I don't care about this story so you shouldn't either" way.
    I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he was an Olympian, and a hugely highly profiled one. We heard about Pistorius ALL the time leading up to and during the Olympics. I fully expected to hear updates on his career for years (didn't expect this! That's for sure.) So to some extent- it was a person that the US news was already pretty fascinated with. A freaking murder case was of course going to get coverage.


    (I wonder how long until he goes to trial. That article about the poor conditions for those who don't get bail said the guy had been waiting 2 years for a trial- and living with people with drug resistant TB! That shouldn't be allowed under Human Rights law! Purposefully exposing people to contagious diseases.) Because this is a 'celebrity' I bet it doesn't take 2 years to get a trial.

  14. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Interesting that a South African story has such legs in the US.
    Ummm...

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he was an Olympian, and a hugely highly profiled one. We heard about Pistorius ALL the time leading up to and during the Olympics. I fully expected to hear updates on his career for years (didn't expect this! That's for sure.) So to some extent- it was a person that the US news was already pretty fascinated with. A freaking murder case was of course going to get coverage.
    From that angle, it's OJ all over again. The star athlete, the beautiful victim, the public trial.

    But I didn't follow OJ at all - for me it's about the puzzle.

  16. #296
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    I think it is very similar to OJ. I was too young to follow OJ, but I remember we got pulled from gym class to watch the verdict. We were told it was a 'defining moment in history'. I remember thinking that was kind of silly... but the school administration made sure that every student watched it on TV for 15 minutes that day.

  17. #297

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    In addition to what was already said, we seem to have a thing for blond female crime victims. Jon Benet, Natalie Holloway, Nicole Simpson, Elizabeth Smart. And then I just discovered Princess Diana's funeral was the most watched tv event EVER. I'm sure brunettes get killed but fewer of them show up in the news. Maybe we can't believe anyone would ever kill an attractive blond.
    Figure skating is hard.

  18. #298
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    snoopy you have a point - in two of the cases I mentioned above, the victims were also blonde - Jeffrey MacDonald's wife and children, and the Lindbergh baby. Sharon Tate would be another.

  19. #299
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    Another one that comes to mind - not blonde! - is Lizzie Borden. Not famous and no beautiful victims, but another case that was full of clues, in a classic contained environment where the floorplan once again came into play, the importance of the timeline and witnesses, the potential motives. At the time the gruesomeness and unlikely murderer made headlines, but I believe it has endured because it's another one that arm chair detectives can and do continue to study and debate.

  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    Jon Benet, Natalie Holloway, Nicole Simpson, Elizabeth Smart.
    Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped and repeatedly raped by a Mormon polygamist in Salt Lake City, and later rescued. She was not murdered (not that you said she was). You're right, definitely a high-profile criminal case involving a blond female. I think some of the interest in that and the Jaycee Dugard cases was that the victims were found long after their kidnappings. The general assumption most people had before then was that a kidnapped person who isn't found within a few weeks won't ever be found alive.
    Last edited by heckles; 02-22-2013 at 08:49 PM.

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