Oscar Pistorius on murder charge

[4rkidz]

Also the reports suggested that whilst he was getting the fan from the balcony Reeva slipped out of bed and went to the toilet.. which is why the noise in the bathroom was after the fact and why he had thought she was still in bed.. also questions about there actually was any type of blood or tissue on the cricket bat - also prior history of domestics or phone records or witnesses would be needed .. in reading all the materials on this all I have found was a previous charge that was dropped years ago against a 19 year girl who refused to leave his house and he slammed the door on her..(which is obviously not okay.. but does that qualify as a history of domestic violence??).. I'm still not convinced it was an accident.. but after listening to the reports today I'm more interested in the forensic evidence..

[heckles]

I don't think Reeva being or not being on the toilet itself is material to the case.

Her positioning is relevant in that if she wasn't sitting on the toilet, with the door locked, for the standard reason, why was she sitting on it? Was she cowering in fear from a raging idiot?

[Prancer]

I saw photos of his washroom. I have never seen a square toilet before. I don't know how comfortable that would be. And I always hit the toilet when I get out of the shower, so I can imagine some really bad bruises if my toilet were quad-shaped.

I know some people who have a square toilet. It looks weird because it's a toilet, but it's just like a chair.

Her positioning is relevant in that if she wasn't sitting on the toilet, with the door ocked,

I wonder if she had a history of locking the door when she went to the bathroom.

[heckles]

I wonder if she had a history of locking the door when she went to the bathroom.

Really no reason to lock the bathroom door in a household with no young children who could barge in.

[Prancer]

Really no reason to lock the bathroom door in a household with no young children who could barge in.

I think there are people who do lock the bathroom door as a habit. But I will bet that is one thing that jumped right out at the police as an oddity.

[jl]

I'm not 100% sure on how South African law works (though a quick scan tells me that while South Africa embraces both common [UK] and civil [rest of Europe] law, criminal law follows the British system as a general rule), but assuming this is based on the English system, Oscar is arguing that he couldn't form the intent to murder Reeva because he thought someone else that intended harm to him was in there. A mistake of fact. Canada requires a mistake to be made on a reasonable basis, something I'm not sure if SA has.

The prosecutor can argue that regardless of who's in there, Oscar still shot with the intention to kill, so the mistake of fact is irrelevant. Usually, the only way to justify this is a self-defence argument, which involves trying to prove he had a reasonable apprehension of harm that would trigger him to act in such manner. Hence Oscar's pre-emptive argument that he got death threats.

It'll be interesting to see what the prosecution's basis for the murder charge is, though.

[Vash01]

There is so much that we don't know about what really happened that I am not going to draw any conclusions. I am always for 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

[Coco]

No one needed to frame him. He shot her. The only question is whether he did it knowingly or not.

Seriously? Were you really that confused by my post?

[Jenny]

Some tidbits from AP articles this morning - testimony at the bail hearing from the lead detective that addresses some of the issues we've been discussing here:

A witness heard “non-stop shouting” in the home of athletics star Oscar Pistorius shortly before his girlfriend was shot dead, the lead detective in the murder investigation said on Wednesday.

Botha also cited another witness on the upscale gated community near Pretoria where Pistorius lived as saying he heard a shot, followed 17 minutes later by more shots.

Another witness also spoke of a shot followed by screams, followed by more shots, he said.

“I believe he knew she (Steenkamp) was in the bathroom and he shot four shots through the door,” the detective said, adding the angle at which the rounds were fired suggested they were aimed deliberately at somebody on the toilet.

Pistorius had said he moved into the bathroom on his stumps - the reason he felt so vulnerable - but Botha said the shots went in a “top to bottom” trajectory, suggesting Pistorius was wearing his artificial legs when he pulled the trigger.

[orbitz]

MSNBC

Defense lawyers exposed flaws in the prosecution case against Oscar Pistorius Wednesday as a court heard more dramatic details of the night he fatally shot his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp.

Detective Hilton Botha testified that one witness heard gunshots, saw lights on in the house, heard a woman screaming two or three times, then another few shots. Another witness heard an argument that lasted an hour, he said.

There were gasps from Pistorius’ family as Botha, under cross-examination, admitted one of the witnesses who heard an argument was 1,000 feet away from the house at the time.

[Cruella]

Just catching up on this morning's reports and the story in the New York Times adds that:

* The empty holster where Pistorius kept the handgun appears to be on the side of the bed where Reeva was sleeping (her slippers and overnight bag were on that side), so it would have been impossible for him to remove the gun without noticing that she wasn't there -- even in the dark.

[Jenny]

re the distance - on a quiet still night, it might have been possible to hear an argument; the question is whether it was coming from Oscar's home or not.

re lights in the house - although Oscar claims he didn't turn on any lights, if Reeva was using the bathroom there's a good chance that light was on (if she was hiding, probably not); plus once she was shot, it's likely Oscar started turning on lights as he moved her body and made phone calls. If this was a novel or tv show, the exact timeline would be critical.

[morqet]

Just catching up on this morning's reports and the story in the New York Times adds that:

* The empty holster where Pistorius kept the handgun appears to be on the side of the bed where Reeva was sleeping (her slippers and overnight bag were on that side), so it would have been impossible for him to remove the gun without noticing that she wasn't there -- even in the dark.

The defence have countered this:

Roux said Pistorius had a shoulder problem and so he slept on the other side of the bed than usual on the night in question. Steenkamp had spent the previous night there too, and had slept on her usual side that night.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...-live-coverage
This has a good summary of all the claims & counter claims that have been made in court today.

[Cruella]

Oh, interesting. Will check out that link, thanks!

[love_skate2011]

Guilty !!!
I just hope they dont pull an O.J Simpson on him.

Murder is Murder !
cant believe some of the media's bias and sensationalist reporting
twsiting it as a sad end of a passionate love

[heckles]

Seems strange that Oscar called a number of entities from his mobile phone except 112, South Africa's equivalent for 911. Wonder if he was trying to stall?

[milanessa]

Guilty !!!
I just hope they dont pull an O.J Simpson on him.

Murder is Murder !
cant believe some of the media's bias and sensationalist reporting
twsiting it as a sad end of a passionate love

Judge and executioner all in one, eh? Where'd you get your law degree?

[Jenny]

Seems strange that Oscar called a number of entities from his mobile phone except 112, South Africa's equivalent for 911. Wonder if he was trying to stall?

Someone brought up earlier that it's possible that the police are not the first people you'd call, depending on how the police are viewed locally. And not that this justifies it, but I do think that celebrities sometimes think differently because more is at stake - for example you might call your lawyer before you call the police.

When Heath Ledger died, I remember a lot of discussion about who was called when - he was found my a masseuse who had arrived for an appointment and thought he was sleeping. When he didn't wake up, instead of calling 911 or an ambulance, her first call was to one of his celebrity friends, who wasn't in town but immediately dispatched her personal security. I can see why the masseuse did that - if she knew him well enough to know that he might be passed out on drugs, she probably wanted to protect him, and thus called someone who would know what to do. It sounds like the celebrity friend's - it was Mary Kate Olsen - first instinct was to protect his reputation, and thus secure the scene and provide support to the masseuse. Then, apparently realizing there could be a bigger danger, the masseuse called 91 (or maybe Olsen told her to), and the paramedics arrived at the same time as Olsen's security team.

All this to say that Oscar might have called people he thought could help her quickly and potentially discreetly first, and people he knew he could trust. Again not saying it's the right thing to do, but what the rest of us would do, based on where we live and who we are, might be very different than what others would do in a similar situation.

[heckles]

Someone brought up earlier that it's possible that the police are not the first people you'd call, depending on how the police are viewed locally.

I understand a mistrust of police, but 112, much like 911, is a link to ambulance services in addition to law enforcement. It seems that Oscar may have been stalling getting an ambulance, and her death may have resulted from that. Did he not want the victim to tell her tale?

When Heath Ledger died, I remember a lot of discussion about who was called when - he was found my a masseuse who had arrived for an appointment and thought he was sleeping.

Heath Ledger's massage therapist didn't act wisely, but I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. Ledger was a known drug abuser, and therefore his massage therapist may have underestimated the seriousness of the situation in front of her. Pistorius, on the other hand, was facing a woman who had been shot at close range four times. How could that not require an ambulance? Did he delay action because he was too busy thinking about how he was going to explain this one?

[robinhood]

There is so much that we don't know about what really happened that I am not going to draw any conclusions. I am always for 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

Except in this case he's proven to be guilty. It's just the level of premeditation in the act that is being/going to be judged, as the fact is he murdered his girlfriend