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  1. #181

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    FWIW, from a choreography standpoint, I think V&M's Carmen is a more interesting & novel piece of work than D&W's Notre Dame de Paris, but I would not call either program cheesy.


    And as to GS? I post there. I am not the board owner, and I don't control what others post there, and am only responsible for what I say myself.

  2. #182

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    I wouldn't call either program cheesy either, Doris, but I understand what PJ was trying to get at without her going into a lot of specifics. Maybe she should have used another anology or been more specific but I'm sure she'd still piss off *some* D/W ubers (as I read in the D/W thread).

    I love both teams but prefer V/M and one thing that PJ said near the end resonated with me. What if we were to compare D/W's DF of last year to V/M's Carmen of this year. She thinks that is a more comprable comparision -- and so do I.
    Crazy about sports!

  3. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    And as to GS? I post there. I am not the board owner, and I don't control what others post there, and am only responsible for what I say myself.
    But you did D-W ubers group at that forum. And today you like to talk about big Tessa and porno

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  5. #185

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    professordeb, I would be fine with that, actually, as a comparison. Just to me, the cheese thing is too insulting. Heck, do Canadians use the phrase, "Who cut the cheese?"

    I think this has not been posted yet. It's very good news, & I hope the W&P news is good too.:

    Ryan Pyette ‏@RyanatLFPress

    Skate Canada's Mike Slipchuk said Tessa Virtue cramping at 4C won't have significance (for worlds). Weaver-Poje fate to come soon.
    3:38 PM - 14 Feb 13

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    professordeb, I would be fine with that, actually, as a comparison. Just to me, the cheese thing is too insulting. Heck, do Canadians use the phrase, "Who cut the cheese?"

    I think this has not been posted yet. It's very good news, & I hope the W&P news is good too.:
    Not sure this news is good to you.

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    professordeb, I would be fine with that, actually, as a comparison. Just to me, the cheese thing is too insulting. Heck, do Canadians use the phrase, "Who cut the cheese?"

    I think this has not been posted yet. It's very good news, & I hope the W&P news is good too.:
    Ohhhh, and I really like the twitter about 1) Tessa being OK (yes!!) and 2) W/P looking like a maybe, perhaps, hope so for Worlds? If both those couples are at Worlds I just *may* have to purchase a ticket and sit up in the nosebleed section anyway.

    Cutting the cheese apparently is another way of saying -- at least now -- that someone has passed gas. News to me but then I'm not up on a number of the "new" meanings of things. Apparently "cut the mustard" means the same thing now but back when I was a child (over 4 decades ago) it didn't mean such a thing. It was more like something wasn't up to par, or unacceptable. Sheesh, when did that meaning change. Sorry for the sidetrack -- it happens to me sometimes
    Crazy about sports!

  8. #188

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    Great news! Thank God.

    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb
    What if we were to compare D/W's DF of last year to V/M's Carmen of this year. She thinks that is a more comprable comparision -- and so do I.
    Well, apologies to the D/W ubers, but... no.

    ETA: I second Flowerpower's post below about GS.

  9. #189
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    A fine quality cheese is not a negative, in my view. Whether the comparison was a good one is open to debate, of course.

    Doris, I enjoy discussing ice dance, but I no longer read or post at GS. You mention that you don't own that board; fair enough, but certainly you are an influential poster there. Do you feel comfortable with the dialogue and atmosphere at GS re comments about V/M over the last year or so? (That is a rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer, though I'd welcome one.)

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by zilam98 View Post
    just a thought--and not sure if it has been brought up before--but would it be a possibility that the judges have not been scoring Carmen as high as we thought they should to send a message to teams not to do that kind of FD for the olympics? FDs with overtly sexual tones/tension? that the OIC would like the figureskating programs would be as GP as possible? not saying that Carmen is porno as some of the haters would describe it, but in an olympic year when you have more people than usual watching the games, people that are largely uninitiated to FS including impressionable kids, that kind of program might be a little too overwhelming to explain to the public with.
    I think these are the countries that will make up the ice dance judging panels for Worlds (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):
    AZE, RUS, UKR, UZB, LTU, FIN, HUN, SVK, FRA, GER, GBR, USA, AUS

    If that's correct, I think what V/M are doing would not be considered shocking in any of the above counties outside of possibly the USA. Even in the USA, "Family Guy" has more going on that what's happening in this FD, and that's a cartoon shown during primetime on weekends, when lots of kids would be watching.

    I believe judges might be holding back on scores because V/M themselves are holding back from the performance. Because V/M started this season with an artistic vision, rather than just creating level 4 elements and figuring out how to fit them in the program, they've been more focused on the technical side during the season, dependent on judges feedback, and we can see how they've been making major changes as the season goes on.

    I hope that by Worlds, they'll feel confident enough to go "all in." There are parts of this program that are sexual, parts that are romantic, parts that are full of anger. These emotions can be fully realized if V/M fully commit. If a part requires them to make out, grope each other, or slap each other in the face, then they should do it. If this were a stage performance, or even something like SYTYCD, that's what the dancers would do, and no one in the audience would faint. Everyone realizes it's part of the performance.

    The funny thing is, I believe the more committed they are to the performance, the less "gimmicky" or "shocking" particular moves would appear. The overall committment would make each move easier to contextualize in the complete performance of the story and theme.

    I'm confident V/M can do this, if they feel ready. I remember how "Umbrellas of Cherbourg" always felt a little off to me until their Worlds performance.
    Last edited by sap5; 02-15-2013 at 03:53 PM.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    A fine quality cheese is not a negative, in my view. Whether the comparison was a good one is open to debate, of course.

    Doris, I enjoy discussing ice dance, but I no longer read or post at GS. You mention that you don't own that board; fair enough, but certainly you are an influential poster there. Do you feel comfortable with the dialogue and atmosphere at GS re comments about V/M over the last year or so? (That is a rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer, though I'd welcome one.)
    Well said flowerpower. GS has certainly turned out to be a very unfriendly type of board for VM fans. I more or less stick to the Patrick Fan page where I have a lot of friends like Spiky Durian.

  12. #192
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    A month before Worlds and it seems that all the skate chat places I know of are going crazy. I quit Skatefans years ago because of the daily Canada-bashing . IceNetwork seemed to be so pro-American that no other country could be allowed to have their own heroes. And then FSU and GS would take turns being the more negative. I've tried to balance by avoiding one, then the other and cherry-picking what I read. It really distresses me to see all of this! Even people I respect succumb to the bait.
    Could we please stop the massive generalizations on what "you Canadians" or "you Americans" think? I can't remember the last time I ever went near Kraft cheese. Give me a smooth Boursin or a lovely Brie! At least P.J. didn't use a gorgonzola! How about apples and oranges?

  13. #193

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    Are we discussing V/M, cheese and other foodstuffs, or is this about board dragging GS? I'm not really comfortable with doing the latter.

    If someone's unhappy with another forum, don't go there, or PM the owner regarding your concerns; that would actually be constructive.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by sap5 View Post
    The funny thing is, I believe the more committed they are to the performance, the less "gimmicky" or "shocking" particular moves would appear. The overall committment woul make each move easier to contextualize in the complete performance of the story and theme.

    I'm confident V/M can do this, if they feel ready. I remember how "Umbrellas of Cherbourg" always felt a little off to me until their Worlds performance.
    I was in the audience at Nationals. They "fully committed" to the choreo, believe me! It's too bad you weren't able to be there - you'd have really enjoyed it, I think.

    I don't think anything is gimmicky or shocking in the choreography anyway, do you?

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by sap5 View Post
    I think these are the countries that will make up the ice dance judging panels for Worlds (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):
    AZE, RUS, UKR, UZB, LTU, FIN, HUN, SVK, FRA, GER, GBR, USA, AUS

    If that's correct, I think what V/M are doing would not be considered shocking in any of the above counties outside of possibly the USA.
    I agree that the choreography in Carmen probably isn't considered shocking to the senses of the individual judges, but the judges are acting on behalf of the ISU. This is the same ISU that just a few years ago issued a directive, if not an actual rule, that ice dance programs should be "uplifting." One of the concerns was that the programs should be easily understandable to the audience. They also wanted the ice dancers to consider using popular music for the SDs so that they would look more like something from Dancing with the Stars. I am not sure where they currently stand on "uplifting" but since this was pretty recent the judges may still have it in the back of their minds. A re-imaging of the Carmen Suite (portraying something other than the version of the story best known to skating fans) could fall into the "difficult to understand" category that the ISU was admonishing a few years ago.

    If the judges heavily rewarded Carmen, it would be likely that V&M may go even further in the experimental direction next year and that other teams would follow suit. Perhaps the ISU does not want this for the Olympics. We don't know what's being discussed at the judges' meetings. They have certainly chosen an SD theme (Finnstep) that is not likely to result in anything too voidy.

    V&M's SD seems to be better received now that they took the dark elements of the story out and turned it into a more or less generic love themed waltz.

    I believe judges might be holding back on scores because V/M themselves are holding back from the performance.
    For me they had the performance aspect nailed down from day 1. I agree with the British Eurosport commentator who said Tessa is Carmen. YMMV of course. I do expect them to get even better by Worlds and hope it will be rewarded there.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    A fine quality cheese is not a negative, in my view. Whether the comparison was a good one is open to debate, of course.

    Doris, I enjoy discussing ice dance, but I no longer read or post at GS. You mention that you don't own that board; fair enough, but certainly you are an influential poster there. Do you feel comfortable with the dialogue and atmosphere at GS re comments about V/M over the last year or so? (That is a rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer, though I'd welcome one.)
    Re the cheese comment and the negative GS comments: I always think this stuff emerges when one feels the "other" team is a threat to win. It is certainly negative and silly but in a very backhanded way it is a compliment. You don't see GS and PJ comments about the fifth place team. Maybe PJ fears D/W and the GS folks fear fear V/M. Today is tgif so I'm looking to turn negatives to positives.

  17. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    I was in the audience at Nationals. They "fully committed" to the choreo, believe me! It's too bad you weren't able to be there - you'd have really enjoyed it, I think.

    I don't think anything is gimmicky or shocking in the choreography anyway, do you?
    IMHO, it was strongest perfomance of the season at Nationals.
    So they could do this, if they did this 1 time. Now i wish all team will be healthy and strong to skate at WCh. Fingers crossed.

  18. #198
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    Didn't we already have this conversation, except D&W were a discount grocery store or something?

  19. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpower View Post
    I don't think anything is gimmicky or shocking in the choreography anyway, do you?
    I don't. I wonder what V/M think though?

    That quote by Tessa, where she said she was upset when she heard some people had been confusing her Carmen character with her actual personality, confused the heck out of me. Carmen is clearly a role. If she believes in the role as it has been envisoned, how could she have been upset by that? She's clearly playing a character. If she's not comfortable with the character though, and not committed to how that character has been designed, I could see these kind of doubts, I guess.

    Her quote was so weird. I kept thinking if Imelda Staunton heard some people actually believed her real personality was like that of Dolores Umbridge, she'd be flattered that she'd played the role so convincingly.

  20. #200
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    Fair enough, no more board-dragging from me.

    What V/M have taken on in their FD is extremely challenging. A great deal of emotional depth and detail, extremely high technical demands, new and challenging elements, modern dance vocabulary. At Nationals the emotional impact was huge, but getting all of these many demands to come together simultaneously is really, really hard.

    I'm so pleased that they took this on. I hope that Tessa is OK (and doesn't have another cramping flare-up - it troubled me to see her immediately bending down in the K&C and loosening her skates the way she had to do when recovering from the first surgery). For their own sense of accomplishment, and for me as a viewer, I'd really like to see them nail this FD at Worlds, so I can file the video with my all-time ice dance faves to re-watch, regardless of where they place in the competition. :-) The judging system won't necessarily reward it fully, but they'll inspire younger dancers.
    Last edited by flowerpower; 02-15-2013 at 04:51 PM.

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