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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I know people who had surgery under genera anesthesia but also with an epidural for pain management while in the early stages of the recovery. At least, I think that's what was done.
    That's true, in which case he would need one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I think Yana may have gotten the terminology mixed up, or perhaps it's the same word in Russian.
    Catheter is kaTEHter in Russian. I don't know the word for drain though.
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  2. #42

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    Is it the same idiot who was claiming Rochette was crying after skating her Olympic SP just to get more points?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    No. Did I say it did?
    We could go on: did I say you said? But I don't think that part would be of interest. I was focusing on the "No" part.


    Quote Originally Posted by maatTheViking View Post
    When it comes to patient confidentiality - no, what would you have him do? I don't think that it should be expected that a journalist trick hospital staff to get information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Actually, no. Journalists' right to investigate stories do not trump patients' right to confidentiality. Journalists are not mentioned as one of the exceptions in the Israeli Patients' Right Law. Nor should they; being famous should not automatically mean that your medical information should be broadcast to all and sundry.
    And yet it journalists dig patient histories all the the time, when it's relevant to the public eye.
    In Plushenko's case, particularly, his conditions are relevant to his skating, he is publicly founded and represents his country. Those are all reasons why I would expect a journalist would try to investigate.

    Do you expect jouralists to only pass what it's told them in offcial press conferences? Even when, say, they suspect for whatever reason there's more to a story? Do you expect no journalist to investigate and speculate? Do you wish that?

    In my opinion, scaring journalists into telling official stories only is a pretty dangerous path.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Also, in terms of human rights - these also include the right to privacy and patients' rights.
    Of course. Even though the privacy expectations of a public figure are lower, and being a public figure is a choice.

    In this case though, I think it's just a matter of perspective. As I said, on one side there's a man who's already very blessed, on the other there is something that involves important human rights which affect the entire Russian population (and more). What Plushenko is doing isn't helpful, given the scenario he's in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Free speech and freedom of the press (where applicable) do not mean you can say anything you want; even in the US, it means the government can't infringe on your free speech. It does not mean you get to slander and libel people with impunity, or that you deserve access to private people's medical information (though I imagine some things in the public realm are covered by the Freedom of Information Act and other open records laws). Your approach seems to be that Plushenko, or famous people, or anyone who leaves the house - I can't really tell - has signed away some of the right to privacy, confidentiality, and various protections of the law. I don't think so.
    I don't think so either, nor I know how you figured that I'd think anyone who leaves the house signs away their right to privacy, of that press freedom would mean you can slander people.

    Ideally, it would be nice if everyone's rights were protected, including Plushenko's.
    But that's not the case, it's expecially not the case in Russia, and Plushenko is not the one who's suffering from Russia's isssues.
    I would like him and everyone else to see the big picture, use some perspective, and then decide what's the best path.
    Last edited by loulou; 02-12-2013 at 12:46 PM.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    And yet it journalists dig patient histories all the the time, when it's relevant to the public eye.
    In Plushenko's case, particularly, his conditions are relevant to his skating, he is publicly founded and represents his country. Those are all reasons why I would expect a journalist would try to investigate.

    Do you expect jouralists to only pass what it's told them in offcial press conferences? Even when, say, they suspect for whatever reason there's more to a story? Do you expect no journalist to investigate and speculate? Do you wish that?

    In my opinion, scaring journalists into telling official stories only is a pretty dangerous path.
    Anyone who's in hospital has a right to privacy. Jeez, if anything, it's common decency!

    Besides that, any journalist who believes that a public figure is going to check into hospital under their real name is a bit stupid, IMO. The journalists couldn't find any patient registered as "Plushenko" - that means precisely nothing. For all they knew, he could have been there, under the name "Smith" or something.

    Your bolded statement, however, is a bit disturbing. Basically, you're saying that the journalists SHOULD immediately have accused him of faking it and investigated as such. He has no history of faking injuries, he's never done that, few skaters ever have. What you're saying is wrong because it's not about investigating his injury - you are effectively saying it should be common practice to call sportsmanship into question, to tarnish somebody's integrity, to actively go looking for anything they can use to hurt his reputation.

    Blind Freddie could see he was in agony at Euros. The pain was obvious. He has injuries, well-reported, that have been worked on for years. Why suddenly this injury, this surgery? If it had been ANY OTHER SKATER who had had a short like Plushenko's at Euros and then pulled out, no-one would have cared. In fact he would have been praised for listening to his body. But because it's Plushenko, he MUST be faking it. It's wrong.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    And yet it journalists dig patient histories all the the time, when it's relevant to the public eye.
    In Plushenko's case, particularly, his conditions are relevant to his skating, he is publicly founded and represents his country. Those are all reasons why I would expect a journalist would try to investigate.

    Do you expect jouralists to only pass what it's told them in offcial press conferences? Even when, say, they suspect for whatever reason there's more to a story? Do you expect no journalist to investigate and speculate? Do you wish that?

    In my opinion, scaring journalists into telling official stories only is a pretty dangerous path.

    In this case though, I think it's just a matter of perspective. As I said, on one side there's a man who's already very blessed, on the other there is something that involves important human rights which affect the entire Russian population (and more). What Plushenko is doing isn't helpful, given the scenario he's in.
    Once again: journalists should certainly be free to conduct investigations and report on them. This does not mean that they are entitled to absolute and unrestricted access to every type of information in existence. Private medical information is not something journalists deserve unrestricted access to; obviously many countries agree, as journalists are not mentioned as an exception when it comes to medical confidentiality laws and acts. This includes the Israeli law, which is the one applicable to Plushenko in this case; Russian journalists can be as nosy as they want, but no Israeli hospital or medical professional should discuss a patient with the media unless the patient has agreed for them to so.

    If "journalists dig patient histories up all the time", they may well be breaking the law; and if journalists spread libelous information about others because someone was not willing to break those laws for them, then by all means they can be sued for damages, and the plaintiff may well have a good case. Remember, the "proof" was that supposedly no Israeli hospital confirmed that Plushenko was a patient, not that anyone had any information about what he was or wasn't doing. If an Israeli hospital had given out such information without Plushenko's consent, I think he would have had a case against them.

    Being famous, or even publicly funded, does not mean that you have no expectation of privacy whatsoever or that medical confidentiality laws do not apply to you. And BTW, as a general point and not related to Plushenko: being a public figure is not necessarily a choice. Some people are involved in high visibility professions and avocations even though they are not particularly interested in being in the public eye and becoming celebrities.

    I'm more concerned about the human rights of the patient - in this case, Plushenko. Being a journalist does not mean you get free pass to libel, slander, invade people's privacy or do otherwise legally dodgy things. The point is not that journalists should only stick to the official line, but that they need to be able to support certain allegations with actual proof. This was not the case here, and at least at face value, the allegations are libelous, so the person who made them can be sued for libel. And not just in Russia.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 02-12-2013 at 01:03 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Is it the same idiot who was claiming Rochette was crying after skating her Olympic SP just to get more points?
    I thought that was Oleg Vassiliev?

    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Anyone who's in hospital has a right to privacy. Jeez, if anything, it's common decency!
    I couldn't agree with you more but Plushenko never made a secret out of him going to Israel for surgery and his wife tweeted pictures of him in the hospital and even an x-ray or something. There is also a video of Plushenko walking down the hospital hallway dressed in hospital clothes with his wife by his side and since he permitted them to go public with all that material, how does that indicate he wanted his privacy to be respected?

    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Blind Freddie could see he was in agony at Euros. The pain was obvious. He has injuries, well-reported, that have been worked on for years. Why suddenly this injury, this surgery? If it had been ANY OTHER SKATER who had had a short like Plushenko's at Euros and then pulled out, no-one would have cared. In fact he would have been praised for listening to his body. But because it's Plushenko, he MUST be faking it. It's wrong.
    Absolutely. I personally never ever questioned Plushenko's hospitalization/surgery, much less am I questioning it now because he wouldn't be suing the journalist if he couldn't produce hard evidence of his stay at an Israeli clinic, such as the name of the clinic, his hospital admission papers and his discharge papers. Simple as that.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    And yet it journalists dig patient histories all the the time, when it's relevant to the public eye.
    In Plushenko's case, particularly, his conditions are relevant to his skating, he is publicly founded and represents his country. Those are all reasons why I would expect a journalist would try to investigate.
    Do you expect jouralists to only pass what it's told them in offcial press conferences? Even when, say, they suspect for whatever reason there's more to a story? Do you expect no journalist to investigate and speculate? Do you wish that?
    Has anyone listened to the video where he speaks of Plush and surgery during men's warm up? Does it look/sound like a journalist who investigated further a case and shed some light, or someone who read a yellow article-newspaper and just repeated it? Did he speak any facts? He says Plushenko does a lot of PR so this is one more of it. I understand very few of what he says but he doesnt look like Miss Marple to me.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Your bolded statement, however, is a bit disturbing. Basically, you're saying that the journalists SHOULD immediately have accused him of faking it and investigated as such. He has no history of faking injuries, he's never done that, few skaters ever have. What you're saying is wrong because it's not about investigating his injury - you are effectively saying it should be common practice to call sportsmanship into question, to tarnish somebody's integrity, to actively go looking for anything they can use to hurt his reputation.
    Sure miss karne.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by senorita View Post
    Has anyone listened to the video where he speaks of Plush and surgery during men's warm up? Does it look/sound like a journalist who investigated further a case and shed some light, or someone who read a yellow article-newspaper and just repeated it? Did he speak any facts? He says Plushenko does a lot of PR so this is one more of it. I understand very few of what he says but he doesnt look like Miss Marple to me.
    People were saying that the press the commentator refers to couldn't have possibly known if Plushenko was in any hospital, because of privacy. I just pointed out that journalists dig stories, and later I implied that thank lord they do.

    How this matter was handled, whether Plushenko was done any harm or not, those are evaluations I did not make. My point is that's less relevant than the fact Plushenko is taking to court a journalist in Russia, given the scenario.
    Last edited by loulou; 02-12-2013 at 04:14 PM.

  10. #50
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    Is Plush being advised by the suing queen Baiul? lol

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I couldn't agree with you more but Plushenko never made a secret out of him going to Israel for surgery and his wife tweeted pictures of him in the hospital and even an x-ray or something. There is also a video of Plushenko walking down the hospital hallway dressed in hospital clothes with his wife by his side and since he permitted them to go public with all that material, how does that indicate he wanted his privacy to be respected?
    I believe the surgery itself was not a secret, but the details of where and what exactly were not made public at first. As I understand it, they only went into overshare mode (really, I could have done without that picture of him with the drain ) after there were reports that he was faking the whole thing and the surgery was bogus.

    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    People were saying that the press the commentator refers to couldn't have possibly known if Plushenko was in any hospital, because of privacy. I just pointed out that journalists dig stories, and later I implied that thank lord they do.
    And others have told you repeatedly that they disagree that journalists should be out there digging into people's private medical records. Which, as has also been noted multiple times, is not information that can be legally shared with the media in most countries. And since said commentator was accusing Plushenko of something that was 1. malicious and 2. not backed up with any evidence, a case can probably be made that this person was making libelous statements.

    The same thing would happen in many other countries. Journalists are not exempt from being sued for libel.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 02-12-2013 at 04:19 PM.

  12. #52
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    He was in pain, performed badly, withdrew, went to Israel, had surgery and is recovering...end of story. He should just state simple facts and move on to healing and training. There is no reason to waste his time or money on a "journalist" who isn't worth it.

  13. #53
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    There are plenty of reasons to spend time and money on this. Only he can decide if those reasons are good enough.

    Personally I think just threatening to sue is good enough here. It gets the point across well enough and tarnishes the reputation of the journalist without having to spend a lot of time and money.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post

    I couldn't agree with you more but Plushenko never made a secret out of him going to Israel for surgery and his wife tweeted pictures of him in the hospital and even an x-ray or something. There is also a video of Plushenko walking down the hospital hallway dressed in hospital clothes with his wife by his side and since he permitted them to go public with all that material, how does that indicate he wanted his privacy to be respected?
    I also suspect those pictures were only put out in reaction to this story, but regardless: a patient is the one who gets to control his or her medical information. If he wants to put out pictures of himself after surgery he can, and that entitles no one to get any more medical details, test results, etc, than what he has put out. If I take time off from my work, I give my boss a generic note from my doctor that says I am being treated for a medical condition and I will be out of work for X days. My boss can try to call my doctor and find out what I had, but he is not legally entitled to that information, because as the patient I am protected by confidentiality law. There have been celebrities who have opened themselves up and shared their experiences with having cancer or dealing with other medical problems, there was a celebrity who had her weight loss surgery broadcast live, and there are all kinds of documentaries showing medical procedures and recoveries in great detail. But if anyone tries to contact their hospital or medical professional for any information outside of that, it cannot be given out if the patient doesn't consent.

    Besides, Plushenko is not suing anyone for violation of privacy laws. He is suing for libel. The privacy laws only come into play because the evidence given for him faking the surgery was that no hospital confirmed he was admitted, but Israeli law prevents the hospital from giving out that information. Thus, a court could conclude that it was unreasonable for the commentator to rely on that piece of information as evidence that the surgery didn't happen (in the US for a public figure, the standard would be whether the commentator had "reckless disregard" for whether or not the story was true). I don't know if Russia has the same privacy law as Israel, so the commentator may not have known that it's not standard to keep that info confidential, and that would be part of his defense.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    And since said commentator was accusing Plushenko of something that was 1. malicious and 2. not backed up with any evidence, a case can probably be made that this person was making libelous statements.

    The same thing would happen in many other countries. Journalists are not exempt from being sued for libel.
    No, but the standard of what is considered libel varies quite a bit between countries. And in this case, if the journalist honestly believed the evidence from the Israeli sources, in some countries what he said would not be libel because he had no reason to doubt the source.
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    No, but the standard of what is considered libel varies quite a bit between countries. And in this case, if the journalist honestly believed the evidence from the Israeli sources, in some countries what he said would not be libel because he had no reason to doubt the source.
    That's why I said that a case can be made rather than that this case will be won

    I'll admit I'm kind of suspicious about this whole "Israeli sources" thing. I have seen no coverage of Plushenko being here in any local media, let alone any questions about the purpose of his stay. If there was any evidence from any Israeli sources, it must have been in the local Russian-language press; I certainly wouldn't know about that. I just find it hard to believe that any local journalist would call up every hospital and clinic in the country on this wild goose chase.

    BTW, in some countries you can actually end up in prison for making libelous statements, even in progressive ones, I think - isn't that how The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo starts?

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by loulou View Post
    We could go on: did I say you said? But I don't think that part would be of interest. I was focusing
    Is there anything specific you would like to know or is this an exercise in obnoxiousness?
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  18. #58
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    The original article posted on twitter about his fake surgery was on this site, this is the one russian papers reproducted. Maybe the journalist innocently believed this source, doesnt sound very proffesional but whatever. If I write on my blog that Plushenko is in Maldives and I called every single hotel there, would he talk about it at Worlds2013?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I also suspect those pictures were only put out in reaction to this story, but regardless: a patient is the one who gets to control his or her medical information. If he wants to put out pictures of himself after surgery he can, and that entitles no one to get any more medical details, test results, etc, than what he has put out. If I take time off from my work, I give my boss a generic note from my doctor that says I am being treated for a medical condition and I will be out of work for X days. My boss can try to call my doctor and find out what I had, but he is not legally entitled to that information, because as the patient I am protected by confidentiality law.
    Those pictures of Plushenko were put on Twitter prior to the 4CC - while Plushenko was still in the hospital? - so I suspect they wanted to prevent stories of fake surgery from being circulated in the media. But this obviously didn't stop Zhurankov. I'm actually quite unpleasantly surprised with Zhuranko'v very low standards as a Eurosport commentator - Eurosport is not a personal blog where you can say whatever that crosses your mind. Nor is it a message board for that matter.

    I don't think the quoted Israeli sources were trying to get more medical details than Plushenko himself was willing to provide, they just wanted to know if there had been any surgery at all, not what kind of surgery, how long it lasted or what medical procedure the doctors used to replace Plushenko's disc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I'll admit I'm kind of suspicious about this whole "Israeli sources" thing. I have seen no coverage of Plushenko being here in any local media, let alone any questions about the purpose of his stay. If there was any evidence from any Israeli sources, it must have been in the local Russian-language press; I certainly wouldn't know about that. I just find it hard to believe that any local journalist would call up every hospital and clinic in the country on this wild goose chase.
    The name of the doctor who operated on Plushenko was known, so the local journalists would have just had to check with him or the clinic he works at. Here is an article quoting the said doctor.

    http://www.rosbalt.ru/piter/2013/02/12/1093237.html

    If Zhurankov is still suspecting fake surgery, he is making this doctor "an accessory to crime", no? lol

    Mishin claims Zhurankov insulting his student is just part of a plan meant to destroy Plushenko's career.

    "It is necessary to get rid of such a strong competitor and have the opportunity to put forward his alternative. Certain persons, who are now closer to show business than professional sports, are not interested in that career Plushenko continued."

    http://www.rosbalt.ru/piter/2013/02/11/1092206.html

    Well, I'm not good at conspiracy theories at all, so this case is closed for me. lol

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    If it had been ANY OTHER SKATER who had had a short like Plushenko's at Euros and then pulled out, no-one would have cared. In fact he would have been praised for listening to his body. But because it's Plushenko, he MUST be faking it. It's wrong.[/QUOTE]

    Bravo!
    Last edited by anna1506; 02-13-2013 at 11:03 PM.

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