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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaphyre14 View Post
    It's Baptism, First Communion, First Confession/Penance, then Confirmation in my Diocese. Comunion is 2nd grade, Confession is 4th grade and Confirmation is High school, generally grades 10 or 11. When I was a child Communion and Confession were done together but somewhere along the line since they've split them up. The reason I heard was that 4th graders are better able to understand the concept of Confession and Penance than 2nd graders.
    We had Confession and Communion together for the reasons Skittl said.

    And definitely I had Confirmation before High School because I was out of that church by then. My parents stopped making us to go Church when I was 11 and I was already confirmed by then. I went back at 13 then left again at 14 when we moved and I went to a Quaker high school.

    I approve of having Confirmation in High School though.
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    Our church had confirmation in High School because that was an age where we could understand the decision we are making. Apparently it can be done from age like 7 onward according to the Catechism, so having it with Communion is no big deal. I also read that Confirmation can be offered to babies being baptised if there is immediate threat of death. I didn't know that, I just thought the baby had to be baptised.

    I was born a premie, and my Mom and Grandfather had a huge fight because she wouldn't allow a priest in to baptise me right away (for fear of germ exposure), when they still weren't sure I was going to make it. She kept telling him she was sure if it was the wrong decision God would punish her and not a baby. He was insisted that if I died I was going to hell. I didn't die, so I can't report who was right...

  3. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Are you being your usual insufferable self or are you truly not aware that some countries (like Colombia or Ecuador) were officially "Catholic countries" and had agreements with the Vatican about Catholicism being the official state religion until the 1990s? It is not just "my family believes it but not me" kind of thing. In many places, Catholicism and national culture are interrelated. In some Latin American countries (speaking of those, because it's what I know), 90%+ of the population is Catholic, with different levels of personal belief.

    Personally, I'm baptized and confirmed. Do I believe in God? No. I hesitate getting married in a Catholic Church because I don't agree with their policies; don't plan on raising my kids Catholic, but....it's a huge part of my culture, and I've already given up a lot of it, living in a new country and all. Shrug.
    No more insufferable that you…I’m sure many Catholics would find you not believing in God, not agreeing with their practices and not wanting to raise your kid’s catholic insufferable, especially when you ‘hesitantly’ ask to use their church for your wedding. Unless your husband is 100% Catholic and wouldn’t have it any other way?

    90%+ of the population identify themselves with being Catholic, fine; but you clearly don’t. Getting married in a Catholic church with as much disdain as you seem to have for it (regardless of what your culture dictates) is disrespectful to not only the church you were married but to the religion in general.

  4. #164
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    I received my sacraments in this order:

    - Baptism (don't remember it)

    - Communion (2nd grade, I remember my ill-fitting veil well)

    - Penance (4th grade)

    - Confirmation (8th grade)
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  5. #165
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    Baptised as infant. Confirmation at 12 or 13 (8th grade). The Sunday after Confirmation, First Communion. I don't know if this is typical of all Episcopal churches, but our church believed that you should be confirmed before receiving communion.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Honestly? I have a couple of reasons. First, to make my mother happy. It would mean a lot to her, and since my parents will be (likely) helping finance the wedding, there might be conditions attached. Second, I'm from a very Catholic culture. My extended family was big into the Catholic Charismatic movement which was (and is) big in Latin America. I've only been to 1 non Catholic wedding, EVER, so I have a hard time imaging a wedding without the Catholic ceremony. I'm an atheist, and I find the Catholic church in most ways quite awful, but it is very closely linked to my culture.
    This is a very good and interesting point. Religion is closely linked to culture and has many social aspects which are important even if you disagree with the church on many issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by nlloyd View Post
    I like your theology about the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. I just think that you don't take it far enough. I think Jesus's teachings were far more radical than you portray. For me, for example, today Jesus would accept homosexuality and value homosexuals precisely because in so doing he would demonstrate the importance of love in his teachings. Not some vague, airy-fairy notion of love, but a love that revolutionizes the Church, theology, social institutions by reminding us what they should actually be about. I think that for this reason the gospel resides with those who have been excluded and denigrated; they are those who understand its radical meaning best.
    Jesus was a socialist, a radical, a troublemaker, who stood on the side of the oppressed and the rejected. Catholic Church has absolutely nothing to do with his teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    I can watch that episode when the tour bus from Częstochowa shows up at Ziggy's apartment at 3am over. And over. And over again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    It is not just "my family believes it but not me" kind of thing. In many places, Catholicism and national culture are interrelated. In some Latin American countries (speaking of those, because it's what I know), 90%+ of the population is Catholic, with different levels of personal belief.
    Same in Poland.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJH View Post
    I am not Roman Catholic so I'm not knowledgeable on the subject. How can Papal infallibility on the subject of faith be transferred from one living pope to another? From the perspective of church tradition, how can two simultaneous heirs to St Peter be explained?
    Not like Catholic Church and logic go together.

    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    No more insufferable that you…I’m sure many Catholics would find you not believing in God, not agreeing with their practices and not wanting to raise your kid’s catholic insufferable, especially when you ‘hesitantly’ ask to use their church for your wedding. Unless your husband is 100% Catholic and wouldn’t have it any other way?

    90%+ of the population identify themselves with being Catholic, fine; but you clearly don’t. Getting married in a Catholic church with as much disdain as you seem to have for it (regardless of what your culture dictates) is disrespectful to not only the church you were married but to the religion in general.
    That's a very idealistic and black and white point of view which ignores actual social reality.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    No more insufferable that you…I’m sure many Catholics would find you not believing in God, not agreeing with their practices and not wanting to raise your kid’s catholic insufferable, especially when you ‘hesitantly’ ask to use their church for your wedding. Unless your husband is 100% Catholic and wouldn’t have it any other way?

    90%+ of the population identify themselves with being Catholic, fine; but you clearly don’t. Getting married in a Catholic church with as much disdain as you seem to have for it (regardless of what your culture dictates) is disrespectful to not only the church you were married but to the religion in general.
    My experience is that most Catholics in areas where being Catholic is as much a cultural thing as a religious thing are very familiar with attitudes like this and don't find it particularly insufferable. It's actually a natural outcome of the religion morphing into a cultural phenomena. There are way too many people who put on the trappings of the religion without believing the dogma in this situation so mostly people don't probe too much as long as you are willing to go along with the outer expressions.

    Most friends and family would be far more horrified by her not getting married in a Catholic church by a priest than by getting married in one when she doesn't believe. This, in fact, is a large part of the problem IMO. There is huge pressure on people to get married with a Catholic ceremony and so they will say and do what they have to in order to make peace with the people who are important to them even lying about how they are going to raise their children -- who haven't even been born yet!

    The thing is, the Church makes a big deal about how all it's sacraments are only for Catholics. It's all built into the dogma and there are plenty of writs and writings about it. Only Catholics can have the sacraments except under very specific circumstances mostly involving imminent death and not being able to get to the practitioner of your choice. (I.e., if you are Catholic and can't find a priest, you can get Last Rites from a non-Catholic official and vice versa.)

    It's only in the area of marriage that they go around these rules even though the rules are pretty clear and they pretty much only do it because getting non-Catholics to agree to raise their kids in the Church helps grow the Church. At least that's my opinion on why they do it. To me, it's as unethical as letting people buy absolution, which used to be an extremely common practice as well.
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  8. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    No more insufferable that you…I’m sure many Catholics would find you not believing in God, not agreeing with their practices and not wanting to raise your kid’s catholic insufferable, especially when you ‘hesitantly’ ask to use their church for your wedding. Unless your husband is 100% Catholic and wouldn’t have it any other way?

    90%+ of the population identify themselves with being Catholic, fine; but you clearly don’t. Getting married in a Catholic church with as much disdain as you seem to have for it (regardless of what your culture dictates) is disrespectful to not only the church you were married but to the religion in general.
    I think you're being rather harsh. I get that for many Catholics it's strictly a question of religion/faith, but I wouldn't discount how heavily influenced/tied some cultures are by the church. It's not an easy separation and I don't think it's fair to assume it would be.
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  9. #169

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    For me it was baptism as an infant, then confession and first communion the same weekend when I was in 3rd grade (which was late -- most of the kids in my first communion class were in 1st and 2nd grade), and confirmation when I was 13 and in 8th grade. Since in those days we were taught that eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin (I did wonder at it being given the same gravity as killing someone) and there were many other sins that were deemed worthy of confession, I recall having quite a heavy burden of guilt going into my first confession.
    When I was a high school senior, I was my youngest sister's confirmation sponsor (not sure if that is the correct term).

    ETA: My sister and I managed to infect most of our first communion class with measles. My sister was already feeling unwell and had chills -- I remember my mother having a heated argument with one of the nuns about my sister wearing a light-weight white cardigan over her organdy communion dress. It was a draw -- my sister wore the cardigan walking the block from the school to the church in the procession and my mom removed it as she entered the church. That and the scratchy net veils are my strongest memories of the event.
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan5 View Post
    Since in those days we were taught that eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin (I did wonder at it being given the same gravity as killing someone)
    Mortal sins aren't all equal. I mean, they are all damning, but the penance needed to clear them isn't the same. I think I remember someone once telling me that due to 'honor thy father and mother' and 'though shall not kill' it would be worse to kill your parents (since that is two commandments) than a stranger. Um...

    According to wikipedia (good source right) the Catechism actually addresses gravity of mortal sin. It is worse to murder than to steal, for instance.

  11. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Baptised as infant. Confirmation at 12 or 13 (8th grade). The Sunday after Confirmation, First Communion. I don't know if this is typical of all Episcopal churches, but our church believed that you should be confirmed before receiving communion.
    This is the usual order/procedure in my Episcopal church, also.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    Well said, oleada. Catholicism and national/regional cultures are in some cases inextricably linked. Thus, many people still see value in and identify with certain Catholic practices even though they do not believe in God and/or the Vatican.
    Catholicism is also a very real link to ethnic and cultural tradition for immigrant groups, even many generations removed. I see that very much in how my husband's Polish family has their ethnicity and cultural tradition rooted in church tradition. Even those in his family that do not regularly attend church see the church as part of their cultural identity as Polish-Americans.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Catholicism is also a very real link to ethnic and cultural tradition for immigrant groups, even many generations removed. I see that very much in how my husband's Polish family has their ethnicity and cultural tradition rooted in church tradition. Even those in his family that do not regularly attend church see the church as part of their cultural identity as Polish-Americans.
    Hence the term "Non-practicing Catholic".

  14. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Mortal sins aren't all equal. I mean, they are all damning, but the penance needed to clear them isn't the same. I think I remember someone once telling me that due to 'honor thy father and mother' and 'though shall not kill' it would be worse to kill your parents (since that is two commandments) than a stranger. Um...

    According to wikipedia (good source right) the Catechism actually addresses gravity of mortal sin. It is worse to murder than to steal, for instance.
    There was nothing about differences in the gravity of mortal sins taught by my catechism teachers -- a mortal sin was a mortal sin and the eternal punishment was the same, no matter what If you died with an unconfessed mortal sin and didn't make a deathbed act of contrition, you went straight to hell. To me that seemed rather extreme punishment for eating a hot dog at a Friday ball game. Of course, since I long ago stopped believing in hell, it's rather moot now.
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  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan5 View Post
    There was nothing about differences in the gravity of mortal sins taught by my catechism teachers -- a mortal sin was a mortal sin and the eternal punishment was the same, no matter what If you died with an unconfessed mortal sin and didn't make a deathbed act of contrition, you went straight to hell. To me that seemed rather extreme punishment for eating a hot dog at a Friday ball game. Of course, since I long ago stopped believing in hell, it's rather moot now.
    They didn't cover it fully then. When I say "in the Catechism" I mean the official document of the church, not the CCD or CCE or whatever they called them each year.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM


    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM
    See 1858.


    Edit: 1457 might be interesting to anyone who is practicing and their children are going to first confession after their first communion. I would definetly ask the parish for explanation! "Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time."
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4D.HTM
    I don't believe this, but if you were devout, allowing that to happen could put your child's afterlife in danger should s/he die before they get that first confession.
    Last edited by Skittl1321; 02-14-2013 at 06:04 PM.

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    When I was a child we had baptism first, then we made our First Confession and Holy Communion when we were in Primary 3 (aged about 7) within weeks of each other. Then confirmations were held once every two years and all the Primary 6's and 7's (anything between about aged 10 and 12) were confirmed. They're doing all three main ones in Primary 4 now in the space of a year. I think 8 years old is very young for confirmation, although I'm presuming there's some reason that it's been changed here.

  17. #177

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    To be honest I do struggle with the whole Catholic marriage thing. My brother has a Catholic girlfriend. He is not Catholic, although he has talked about becoming Catholic so he could say he was Irish Catholic. My parents were Catholic married in the Catholic church and left. We were never baptized Catholic but a lot of our extended family is Catholic. My brother in someways would like to be a nominal Irish Catholic. That's why I'm so comfortable about saying nominal because for some it is a cultural thing.

    However, his Girlfriend is Catholic, they are living together. Now personally I would like to see them getting married. She is such a great girl... However, I will be put in a position if they get married outside the Church. Because if its outside the Church the marriage is invalid.. And I do believe this in a way. Especially considering the fact if your going to say divorce isn't possible. One could argue a Catholic who is not necessarily practicing their faith, isn't in the right place to make this life decision. I.e she comes back to the faith and then is stuck with this choice before.

    But I'm in a position where I could go to the ceremony and not be part of it... Or the church may so no to the marriage because of the living together. (Personally I think if they want to make the relationship right before the Lord, let them make it right). There are some practical problems here.

    I do personally think the concept of mortal sin being "full consent is important". I.e someone may be convinced they aren't really sinning.

    Hopefully they will get married in the Church and/or she just won't ask me to be in the wedding. But I will not like being the position of not being able to be in the wedding because I'm really afraid she'd consider it a rejection of her. And well I want my brother to marry her; she's a sweetheart.

    For many Catholic is like being Jewish. Its part of the culture...
    Last edited by bek; 02-14-2013 at 06:36 PM.

  18. #178
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    So it's okay for them to live together but not get married outside the church? I don't see the logic in this.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

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    If they are in a civil marriage, she could get divorced. The church doesn't consider it to be a marriage, so the divorce isn't real. According to the church, since they are not 'married' they would be living in sin, but they already are... At least this way they would be eligible for insurance, survivor's benefits and other things marriage entitles one to from the government.

    I don't think it is a good idea to go into marriage considering the conditions for divorce though.
    Last edited by Skittl1321; 02-14-2013 at 07:06 PM.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    If they are in a civil marriage, she could get divorced. The church doesn't consider it to be a marriage, so the divorce isn't real. According to the church, since they are not 'married' they would be living in sin, but they already are... At least this way they would be eligible for insurance, survivor's benefits and other things marriage entitles one to from the government.

    I don't think it is a good idea to go into marriage considering the conditions for divorce though.
    Not quite. As I understand it, marriage between two baptized persons is considered valid and civil marriages are considered valid unless it is demonstrated otherwise. An annulment is required for a divorced Catholic to remarry in the church or for a Catholic to marry a divorced non-Catholic in the church. A friend married a non-Catholic in a civil ceremony because he is divorced and refused to go through the annulment process. He has never been baptized in any denomination and she was told that the annulment process would have been very simple but still required, yet he still refused.

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