Page 24 of 28 FirstFirst ... 142223242526 ... LastLast
Results 461 to 480 of 553
  1. #461
    engaged to dupa
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Heaven for climate, Hell for company.
    Posts
    18,917
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1084
    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Maybe it was just a ruse? He acted like he was, so that he could be elected Pope, and then he'll change all the church teachings.
    Good one.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  2. #462
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the other FSU
    Posts
    3,684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I was also under the impression that the Jesuits are one of the more liberal types of catholics....so much so that some of my catholic acquaintances were under the impression that "they'll never elect a Jesuit as pope." Well, maybe a really conservative one. Despite his apparent views on abortion and gay marriage, he might be reasonably friendly to the sciences. He has a master's degree in chemistry: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...ctive-pairing/

    (Might not mean much....here in the US we've seen born-again types with science doctorates claim that all that science-y stuff they learned in their youth is "lies straight from the pit of hell" and the earth is only 7000 years old )

  3. #463
    engaged to dupa
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Heaven for climate, Hell for company.
    Posts
    18,917
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1084
    Jesuits have a very long and entrenched history with education - doesn't mean they're socially liberal. Some of the best and most respected universities in the states are Jesuit run.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  4. #464

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    FSU Witness Protection Program
    Age
    26
    Posts
    28,061
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30559
    Susan6, catholicism embraced evolution since the 1950s stating that there is no intinsic conflict between God and the theory of evolution.

    Catholics are not theological literalists.

  5. #465
    Port de bras!!!
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Ravenclaw
    Posts
    30,035
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30931
    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    Pope Francis I is against equal marriage and abortion.
    And contraception. The usual.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  6. #466
    engaged to dupa
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Heaven for climate, Hell for company.
    Posts
    18,917
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1084
    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    And contraception. The usual.
    Yes.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  7. #467
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the other FSU
    Posts
    3,684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Susan6, catholicism embraced evolution since the 1950s stating that there is no intinsic conflict between God and the theory of evolution.

    Catholics are not theological literalists.
    Yeah, I know....the point of that quote (which is an actual quote from US Rep. Paul Broun, who is actually a physician but now believes the earth is no more than 9000 years old) is that having a science degree does not necessarily mean you'll necessarily side with science. So while the article I posted is hopeful about Francis I having a masters in chemistry, there are a lot of examples of people with similar degrees who've completely turned their back on science.

  8. #468
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    23,859
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Catholics, even very conservative ones, aren't generally noted for turning their backs on science.

    I don't understand why some think this or any other Pope would be liberal in the sense of being pro-choice, etc. Popes are by definition charged with preserving and maintaining Church tradition. That's what the word conservative comes from--conserving a past principle/tradition. So of course Popes will be conservative. To me the issue isn't whether a Pope will hold liberal beliefs, but whether the Pope can effectively dialogue with those of differing views, and articulate a practice of the Church that is life-giving rather than oppressive. So personally I'm less concerned with the Pope's stance on abortion, and more concerned with whether he can bring accountability to the Church for decades of child-rape and kidnapping.

  9. #469
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    3,050
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by susan6 View Post
    I was also under the impression that the Jesuits are one of the more liberal types of catholics.
    If we really want to liberalize the Catholic church, we need a sassy sistah in the Vatican. Whoopi Goldberg is perfect for the role. She played a nun in that movie, so she's qualified.

  10. #470
    Port de bras!!!
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Ravenclaw
    Posts
    30,035
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30931
    I did hear that this is a quiet but tough guy who is supposed to be a managerial Pope--someone who would clean house. That would be nice.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  11. #471
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    17,125
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I did hear that this is a quiet but tough guy who is supposed to be a managerial Pope--someone who would clean house. That would be nice.
    And, maybe, that is what is needed, right now. We cannot expect that any Pope will come in and change everything. But, someone must start. And the best way to start is cleaning house. Deal with the controversy plaguing the church, get the corruption under control. Then, maybe, just maybe, we can begin to address social issues.

  12. #472
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    LEAVE EDMUNDS ALONE!!1!
    Posts
    20,430
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    Pope Francis I is against equal marriage and abortion.
    Just like 99.9% of Catholic priests so not really a surprise.

  13. #473
    engaged to dupa
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Heaven for climate, Hell for company.
    Posts
    18,917
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1084
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Just like 99.9% of Catholic priests so not really a surprise.
    I'm not certain the percentage is that high but certainly the vast majority of them, yes.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  14. #474

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    17,017
    vCash
    1561
    Rep Power
    4990
    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Catholics, even very conservative ones, aren't generally noted for turning their backs on science.

    I don't understand why some think this or any other Pope would be liberal in the sense of being pro-choice, etc. Popes are by definition charged with preserving and maintaining Church tradition. That's what the word conservative comes from--conserving a past principle/tradition. So of course Popes will be conservative. To me the issue isn't whether a Pope will hold liberal beliefs, but whether the Pope can effectively dialogue with those of differing views, and articulate a practice of the Church that is life-giving rather than oppressive. So personally I'm less concerned with the Pope's stance on abortion, and more concerned with whether he can bring accountability to the Church for decades of child-rape and kidnapping.
    This is what I want as well. i want a pope who will clean house in terms of the corruption, and also the abuse of power.

    In terms of science.

    I will say this the Church still believes the account of Genesis in the world being created out of "nothing" still is generally true. Now whether this nothingness developed over 6/7 days or it developed over 6/7 billion years that's immaterial. Even if the nothingings first started somewhere else and the earth and planets developed from something else... That's fine.

    The Church still believes that God created Adam and that Adam is the direct descendent of all human beings. Now whether when God was creating Adam, God used matter from something that was not "living", or whether God developed Adam out of an existing creature.. That's rather immaterial and frankly unimportant. One thing though that is important as the human soul that we inherited from Adam was not something that that evolved but rather something God directly created at that moment.

    None of these things the Church feels extremely strongly on and are the main points of Scripture. Can really be disproven by Science. In general evolution as fine as long as evolution developed by God.

    In general the way the Church sees is as many people forget that the ancients had a different understanding of history than we did. They were generally not always going for 100% historical accuracy. Numbers had meanings and significant truths. Figurative language was used all the time. At times people can get caught up in the literal sense of Scripture but they forget that the ancient humans had a very different understanding of literal than we did... Not to mention there are common modes of speech to be considered as well.

    In general the Church is content to let science be science and the Church be the Church. How exactly God created the earth is rather immaterial as far as the Church is concerned.. Immaterial in the sense of the Church needing to take a position on it.

    I learned about evolution in Catholic school...

    As for the Jesuits the Jesuits were not always at all the "liberal element of the Church." The use to be rather the intellectual arm of the Church and conservative. I say conservative although of course Loyola was a mystic and as such he was questioned/interrogated by the inquisition on several occasions. They were widely feared throughout the Protestant world. The Jesuits took a special oath to be loyal to the pope so having a Jesuit as well Pope seemed questionable.. Not to mention in general popes from specific orders were always avoided. There is some healthy competition between the various orders and a pope favoring one over the other.

    I sometimes wonder scarily would Loyola would think of the Jesuits today. Although I'm sure founders of the more liberal orders who were looking at, would have felt the same thing.

    In general their was no Jesuit Pope because the Jesuits were by far the most powerful organization within the Church anyways since it was founded.
    Last edited by bek; 03-15-2013 at 12:48 AM.

  15. #475

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    1,566
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2066
    Father Drinan was a friend of my father's (and delivered a eulogy at my father's memorial service).

    He told me once that he felt abortion was a moral issue and it wasn't the place of the state to dictate morality.

    That's a paraphrase, since the conversation happened decades ago, but it made an impression on me.

  16. #476

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    FSU Witness Protection Program
    Age
    26
    Posts
    28,061
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30559
    Bek, the way I was taught, Adam (and Eve) were symbols for mankind in general (not specifically one man; I don't know Catholics who believes that); the Biblical story of evolution was the ancient Israelis explanation to understand their world since they didn't have the tools to know what we know now. Evolution happened as described, but it was all a process that God started and led.

    Granted, I don't know if that's the way it was meant to be understood, but it's certainly the way I interpreted it
    Last edited by oleada; 03-15-2013 at 01:42 AM.

  17. #477
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,744
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Bek, the way I was taught, Adam (and Eve) were symbols for mankind in general (not specifically one man); the Biblical story of evolution was the ancient Israelis explanation to understand their world since they didn't have the tools to know what we know now. Evolution happened as described, but it was all a process that God started and led.

    Granted, I don't know if that's the way it was meant to be understood, but it's certainly the way I interpreted it
    That's what I was taught in Catholic school (in the most conservative diocese in the U.S. so it's not like a bunch of "liberals" were distorting something) and what was taught when I was in RCIA four years ago.

  18. #478

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    17,017
    vCash
    1561
    Rep Power
    4990
    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Bek, the way I was taught, Adam (and Eve) were symbols for mankind in general (not specifically one man; I don't know Catholics who believes that); the Biblical story of evolution was the ancient Israelis explanation to understand their world since they didn't have the tools to know what we know now. Evolution happened as described, but it was all a process that God started and led.

    Granted, I don't know if that's the way it was meant to be understood, but it's certainly the way I interpreted it

    I don't know maybe your right... I know we can't believe the soul evolved.

  19. #479
    Living in a Snark
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Argentina (Buenos Aires)
    Age
    32
    Posts
    833
    vCash
    6000
    Rep Power
    178
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    That the Catholic Church has colluded with the military dictatorship in order to keep/advance its power. Shock horror who would have thought (it's happened pretty much everywhere wherever you had right wing authoritarian governments).
    Well yes, but that is not the issue here.
    Back in 2005 he was accused by friends of the government of having told the priest under his command to stop going to the Buenos Aires slums during the last military dictatorship, and to have essentially washed his hand and done nothing when two priest who had gone against his orders were kidnapped and tortured by the army.
    Main you, he has been actively denouncing the government corruption since he took office as archbishop of Buenos Aires back in the nineties, so this could have been easily been invented to harm his credibility. Which is what I tend to believe considering that people like Adolfo Perez Esquivel (Nobel laureate because of his work denouncing the crimes of the last dictatorship rule in Argentina) and Graciela Fernandez Meijide, senator, human rights advocate and mother of a son that was abducted by the military (and who Bergoglio helped to release), among other persons that have dedicated their entirely lives to find and bring the authors of the genocide perpetrated during the last dictatorship to justice, have always maintained that there is not a single shred of evidence that proofs the accusations made againt him.

    Quote Originally Posted by beepbeep View Post
    La mano de Díos.

    Quite literally

    With everyone counting on Scherer for pope, one has to appreciate the irony of electing an Aregentinian pope.
    (Latin American too, I know. But the Argentina vs Brazil bickering will get to a new level. )
    Oh, you wait until next year World Cup, we will have A LOT of new songs, posters and slogans to taunt you with
    Want to see a preview? http://www.alsurinforma.com/wp-conte...-del-mundo.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    Pope Francis I is against equal marriage and abortion.
    Well...that is not entirely true.
    He is against using the word "marriage" to describe the procedure and ceremony. But he is perfectly fine with "civil union" instead.
    A few years before the legalization of gay marriage here in Argentina (which he was against) the city of Buenos Aires legalized the civil union, which was essentially the same, only excluding the right to inheritance between the newly united couples (because that could only be changed by the federal government), and he did not oppose it, he was actually in favor of it and took quite a beating from the catholic right wing because of it.
    Last edited by D&Sfan4ever; 03-15-2013 at 02:00 AM. Reason: The usual...spelling horrors
    D&S 2006 and 2007 World Gold Medalists

  20. #480
    Port de bras!!!
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Ravenclaw
    Posts
    30,035
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    30931
    So I have a couple of questions:

    (1) I understand that it is not done to say "Pope Francis I" now. We'd have to wait until he dies and until there is a Francis II. Is that correct?

    (2) How do you pronounce "jesuit?" I hear people say "jezhoo-it" with the almost the same sound as the second "g" in the word "garage." What's up with that? It's not "je-zoo-it?"
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

Page 24 of 28 FirstFirst ... 142223242526 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •