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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    He will probably live a secluded life in some monastery, I would guess?
    I heard he's gonna move in with you.

    The fastest thing out of New Jersey since Tricky Nicky in a Muscovian handbasket

  2. #22
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    I was wondering about his age when he first was elected pope. He was 78 at the time, IIRC. That's the age well past retirement and I just heard that the job requires one to work 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week, including flying around the world, different times zones, etc. This is a very demanding job even for someone younger.

    The pope, according to reports, has trouble walking. I think it's a very wise and fair decision on his part, even though it hasn't happened since 1400. He thinks the Church deserves someone who can put up with the rigorous schedule and has more energy than he does at his age after having been Pope for 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    That happened because of inheritance and church losing estate, I think.
    That's right.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    What WOULD prompt me to really leave (and probably find the most rigid Orthodox or High Anglican church I would) would be substantial liberalization. The world does not need more relaxed standards. The last thing I want are women priests (I can't even work for secular female bosses because they're too process and emotion-oriented instead of results and rationality oriented) and idiotic kum-bay-ya-ing instead of order. The job of a Church is not to pat you on the head, give you a cookie, and tell you to do whatever feels good because if it feels good, it must be right and moral. You want that, join the Satanist church (which is NOT, I might add, about "worshiping Satan", more like hedonism as a religious calling, and I actually respect them more than most liberal Protestant denominations. At least their theology is honest.)

    But I think this is a good thing because apparently he is too ill to travel and does not want another situation like with John Paul II, with a very sick Pope lingering for years, basically unable to function. Word on the radio was he'll retire to a monastery. And the new rules require the next Pope chosen be under a maximum age.
    Yes we women need to be kept in the home where we belong. We sure shouldn't be in charge of anything, right?

    It's attitudes like yours that have kept women down. You sound like my grandmother from the "old country" who suffered through a horrible arranged marriage & then arranged marriages for her own daughters.

  4. #24

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    I hear that he will be allowed to stay in Vatican City.
    ...and then there's this gem going around InternetCuckoo-ville.

  5. #25
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    The yahoo article I just read said he will stay at the papal summer residence outside Rome (sounds divine) for a while and then retire to a convent in Vatican. It seems that he intends to keep himself out of the new Pope's way.

    What I don't understand is the already being whipped up by the press. The Church will destabilize, inner circle "incredulous", shock waves around the world.

    Really? The Church has survived a lot worse in the last 2,000 years.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    They do allow Anglican and Orthodox convert priests to remain married, though not to remarry if their spouse dies, so I'm not sure it would be a HUGE change. I don't know how much of a help that would be--the younger priests these days tend to be more hardcore orthodox than the older ones already. And I think the reasoning was inheritance and preventing losing Church resources to supporting a family, which is obviously not as much an issue under modern law. (And of course nepotism.)
    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    That's right.
    ^^ Both. That is one theory, which I believe is the most plausible. However, many in the church deny that. They believe it is the closeness to Christ and the unimpeded ability to minister to God. That, for me, doesn't seem logical, since celibacy and inability to marry happened long after the start of the church. And, I do believe that allowing Catholic Priests to marry would help with the molestation problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by skipaway View Post
    First and foremost, I'd love to see changes with regards to birth control.
    I agree. I can understand the church not budging on abortion. But, birth control would be huge.

  7. #27
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    Sorry - glitch

  8. #28
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    But in reality I would bet a lot of practicing Catholics do use birth control. It's not like the Catholic families I know have a gazillion kids. Two is the usual number, in keeping with the national average.

    It's the Jewish orthodox mothers that make me when I see a 25 year old in a wig with 5 kids and another on the way, driving a minivan.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I agree. I can understand the church not budging on abortion. But, birth control would be huge.
    Even if they don't want to allow hormone birth control (which we were counseled as "you don't even know how many abortions you've had!") barrier method would be a huge step!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    The last thing I want are women priests (I can't even work for secular female bosses because they're too process and emotion-oriented instead of results and rationality oriented) and idiotic kum-bay-ya-ing instead of order. The job of a Church is not to pat you on the head, give you a cookie, and tell you to do whatever feels good because if it feels good, it must be right and moral. You want that, join the Satanist church (which is NOT, I might add, about "worshiping Satan", more like hedonism as a religious calling, and I actually respect them more than most liberal Protestant denominations. At least their theology is honest.)
    Ordained female ministers are no different from ordained male ministers. Where did you get the impression that they tell you to do whatever you want? Both ministers at our church (Episcopal) are women. When my mother passed away, we had her memorial service there. The female minister spend two hours with me, helping me come to terms with my loss. Was she emotionally involved? Absolutely. Did she pat me on the head, give me a cookie, and tell me to do what feels good? Absolutely not. We talked about life, after life, God/Christ, faith. She helped me more than any shrink could have, at the time. And just an FYI, that church does more missionary work and has the largest soup kitchen of any I've come in contact with.
    Last edited by cruisin; 02-11-2013 at 06:21 PM.

  11. #31
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    I don't expect the Church or any other form of orthodoxy to budge on birth control. They want more Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    And, I do believe that allowing Catholic Priests to marry would help with the molestation problems.
    No. Pedophiles do not molest children because they are single. That is a complete misunderstanding of that pathology.

    Coming from a Protestant background into the Catholic church, I see the issue of married priests from a different perspective. The pressure on spouses and children of pastors is very damaging sometimes. And the job of a pastor/priest is very consuming often leaving inadequate time to nurture a marriage and be a good parent. In that respect, celibacy frees priests to devote their whole energy to the church and does not leave a spouse or children without adequate attention/devotion from a husband/father. At the same time, it also makes it difficult for priests to have balance and space away from their work.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    It's the Jewish orthodox mothers that make me when I see a 25 year old in a wig with 5 kids and another on the way, driving a minivan.
    This made me chuckle. My daughter is getting her master's in Occupational Therapy. Probably 25% of her fellow classmates are Jewish Orthodox young women, who fit that description exactly. My daughter came home, after her first day of classes and was amazed! She couldn't believe how young they were, that they were married, had more than one or two kids, and were taking on such a difficult program!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    No. Pedophiles do not molest children because they are single. That is a complete misunderstanding of that pathology.
    I was not specifically speaking to pedophiles. There has been molestation in the church for centuries, nuns for example.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I don't show up to mass every weekend anymore because the church is stuck in a time and belief system that I can no longer be a part of. There are still parts of Catholicism that I greatly identify with, and that has prevented me from changing religions, but unless the church changes, I won't be there. When/if the church changes, I'll take my place back in the pew. I'm not expecting that to be anytime soon.
    Yup. This! From someone who went to mass every single Saturday until I was about 20 as well as Catholic school from K - 12 and then a Catholic college. There is so much I disagree with that the Catholic church teaches and believes in that I doubt I will ever go to Catholic mass again. My husband is Lutheran and his stepfather is a Lutheran pastor and we were married in their church. If we ever had kids they won't be brought up Catholic, that's for sure.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I was not specifically speaking to pedophiles. There has been molestation in the church for centuries, nuns for example.
    Again, though, rape, molestation and other forced/non-consensual sexual behaviors are not a result of being single. Married/partnered people can engage in those behaviors just as much as single ones.

    The Catholic church does not have a monopoly at all on sexual misbehavior by clergy or others in position of power. The media has under reported incidents in other denominations. This blog catalogs a number of incidents and cover-ups both Catholic and Protestant. It is mind boggling. But if you read it, you might notice that marriage is not much of an inoculation against such behavior:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/category...liathe-church/

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    But in reality I would bet a lot of practicing Catholics do use birth control. It's not like the Catholic families I know have a gazillion kids. Two is the usual number, in keeping with the national average.

    .
    True in NA and most of Europe but what about women in the 3rd World countries?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by skipaway View Post
    True in NA and most of Europe but what about women in the 3rd World countries?
    I am not sure women in these countries have wide and easy excess to birth control to begin with, regardless of religion.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I don't show up to mass every weekend anymore because the church is stuck in a time and belief system that I can no longer be a part of. There are still parts of Catholicism that I greatly identify with, and that has prevented me from changing religions, but unless the church changes, I won't be there. When/if the church changes, I'll take my place back in the pew. I'm not expecting that to be anytime soon.
    This, agreed. But I don't think the church will ever change. Birth control change could be so effective in poorer countries. Changing position on homosexuality. Re-focusing on helping the needy vs. Joey The Rat piping up about feminism and such.

    Maybe I'm just unfair because I want the church to agree with me, and that's not how it works. But I refuse to go back while the pedophile priest scandal is dismissed by the church (in fact, didn't Ratzinger claim it was persecution at one point? ), among other things I've mentioned.

    That said, I'm glad Ratzinger is stepping down. I don't hold much hope for the future of the church, but there's slight potential now...

    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    What WOULD prompt me to really leave (and probably find the most rigid Orthodox or High Anglican church I would) would be substantial liberalization. The world does not need more relaxed standards. The last thing I want are women priests (I can't even work for secular female bosses because they're too process and emotion-oriented instead of results and rationality oriented) and idiotic kum-bay-ya-ing instead of order. The job of a Church is not to pat you on the head, give you a cookie, and tell you to do whatever feels good because if it feels good, it must be right and moral. You want that, join the Satanist church (which is NOT, I might add, about "worshiping Satan", more like hedonism as a religious calling, and I actually respect them more than most liberal Protestant denominations. At least their theology is honest.)
    Never change, danceronice. Your ridiculous take on women never fails to bring me joy.
    "How you treat the weak is
    Your true nature calling" -- Jane's Addiction

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I am not sure women in these countries have wide and easy excess to birth control to begin with, regardless of religion.
    very true.

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