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  1. #501
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    Le Figaro says the Pope Francis gets up at 4:30 am and that he is not to be called Francis I, the Vatican insists, and certainly not to be confused with the French king Francis I.

    Also, it says that he is missing a piece of the lung, not the whole lung and that while he has never revealed the nature of his illness, specialists think it was TB. Le Figaro also says that he withdrew from the 2005 race with Ratzinger citing poor health and that his health is indeed fragile. OTOH, the Vatican spokesman says that "those who know him, had always seen him in good health."

    More here in French: http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...e-francois.php

    A round-about spokesperson answer, if you ask me. Regardless, I hope he stays healthy and strong. He is going to be busy.
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  2. #502

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    I am hopeful though that this new Pope will lead to Romero's canonization and the embrace of Romero's message. Romero was not a liberation theologian in the sense that he was only concerned with the material world. He actually condemned both Marxism and facism. He though was a man who called deeply for social justice, and of course such things got him killed and enemies throughout the world including the Church.

    I think Romero hasn't been embraced as a Saint (partly because the Church understandably doesn't want Che Guevera along with a Catholic Saint together on a poster... But I have no doubt 100 years from now Romero will be a saint, and 500 years from now he may be considered as influential as a Francis...

    (It still shocks me that there's even a question of Romero being considered not a Martyr. Anyone would would kill someone during the Sacrifice of the Mass (kill at all but during the Mass) is showing hatred of the faith.
    I am cautiously optimistic, too, and thought of Romero immediately when I heard who was chosen Pope. I have a collection of Romero's homilies, I just remembered, that I will have to dig out and read through.

    Anyway, one thing about Pope Francis I liked was reading about him criticizing priests for refusing to baptize children of single mothers. I like a lot of what I have read of him criticizing other priests or bishops for being the opposite of pastoral. Cautiously optimistic....

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    I doubt he wanted to marry any of the young men involved.
    It turns out that maybe he did.

    Cardinal was in physical relationship with accuser

    Cardinal Keith O'Brien had a long-standing physical relationship with one of the men whose complaints about his behaviour sparked his downfall as leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland....

    The man left the priesthood in the middle of the last decade but rejoined and is living on the continent in a post the cardinal helped him secure.

    The complainant is known to have been in regular telephone contact with Cardinal O'Brien until recently and was a frequent visitor to St Benets, his official residence in Edinburgh's Morningside.

    It is understood the cardinal confessed to the relationship after it was recently revealed there had been several complaints to the Vatican about his sexual behaviour towards priests in the 1980s. It is thought to be part of his reference to his sexual conduct as "a priest, a bishop and a cardinal".

    It also emerged the dramatic downfall of Britain's leading Catholic cleric was spurred by gay priests angry at his rhetoric and hypocrisy about same-sex marriages.

    All those who complained about Cardinal O'Brien and alleged they had been abused by him were known to him for decades. At least two are known to have been in same-sex relationships and had become exasperated at double standards in his statements about gay marriage.

    In the six months building up to him being forced to stand down last month, the cardinal had been under some pressure from priests to tone down the rhetoric.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    and that he is not to be called Francis I
    This makes me very happy to hear. When it was originally reported that he selected the name Francis I I thought that was so haughty. Let him be the first when later there is the second.

  5. #505
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    I thought this was an interesting debate on whether Pope Francis is Latino. Seems to be the Latinos in the article can't agree among themselves. Does being Latino means being part of the culture, ethnicity or both?

    Thoughts?
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  6. #506
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino_(demonym)

    Latino /læˈtinoʊ/ or /ləˈtinoʊ/ is a term used chiefly in the United States to refer to people of Latin American extraction or descent, though the term has also been incorrectly used as a synonym for Hispanic. Hispanic is a narrower term which only refers to persons of Spanish-speaking origin or ancestry, while "Latino" is more frequently used to refer more generally to anyone of Latin American origin or ancestry, including Brazilians
    If he ever pulls up stakes again and moves to the United States, I might call him a Latino. While he's living in the Vatican, in my book he's just another elderly white guy.

  7. #507
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    Latinos can be any race/ethnic origin from what the SF Gate article says. I would think that includes whites. The Free Online dictionary defines it as (1) a Latin American and (2) someone of Latin American origin living in the US. This implies one doesn't have to reside in the US to merit the term, although usually one does. Confusion reigns.
    Last edited by IceAlisa; 03-25-2013 at 07:25 AM.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  8. #508
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    Well, I can tell you that here in Puerto Rico there's absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that he's Latino, of Italian ancestry. This discussion about who's Latino and who's not is just a lot of navel gazing by American Latinos. And I say this as a Latina myself, who has been told that I'm not Latina enough because I'm white and from Puerto Rico so I "couldn't" understand the struggles of illegal immigrants and didn't really encounter racial or ethnic prejudice against me in all the time I was in the US.

    When I was living in the mainland US, it always struck me how some Latino activists tended to exclude people from their group based on race and class. It was annoying. Who where they to decide who felt Latino and who didn't? It was self defeating, really, and just fostered animosity and division.

    IMO, Latino groups are not that way as much anymore.

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Thank god! (sic!)

    Worst pope ever.

    I was sure that there was no way, we could get an even more conservative, backward, dangerous idiot than John Paul II but they've decided to choose the only candidate who has fit that bill.
    I recently was able to hear a convincing and concised sum up.

    John Paul II was elected pope for political reasons: he was the breach that should have backed up catholicism in Poland and fight comunism and the eastern block. A lot of money destinated to that cause, that many people, countries and institutions couldn't have been able to give openly, transited through the Vatican Bank. In that contest, a lot of laundry money went on too.

    John Paul II also seemed to have a natural way of communicating with people. Pope Benedict XVI had a very long relationship with John Paul II, and they never really disagreed on anything, except the handling of the pedophilia amongst priests issue: John Paul II and his Secretary of State Sodano, wanted to keep things under the wrap, both to preserve the image of the Catholic Church and for financial reasons (not so much the money they'd have to pay to victims - although that too - but the money some known pedophilies were able to raise, and the way they had to attract large numbers of catholics into churchs and future priests into seminars.

    Pope Benedict XVI was convinced that not only the Church should have had pedophilia scandals blow, but it should have let priests being brought to trials, and not just wait for after death justice. He did what he could (well, he could have done more, but I'm going to say about this in a moment) to start this process as soon as he knew John Paul was dying.

    Pope Benedict XVI was elected because John Paul's era was considered successful, and cardinals thought Benedict was going to be the natural appendix to that. Wrong: Benedict couldn't charm people, and attendance in Rome to his functions started to go thinner. Also, Benedict wanted to clean up the dirt arond sex, abuse and money, that got even deeper while John Paul was sick.

    Benedict tried, and we really know he tried because he found himself completely alone. He started to make mistakes and say stuff in fron of the press that could have been easily spared, had he got people around him to advice him in the areas he lacked the most.
    So he wanted to be effective on the pedophilia issue, and only achieved small steps, because he was fighting alone against his crew. And he obtained nothing at all on the verge of the Vatican Bank: Gotti Tedeschi was made president of the Vatican Bank to reforme it, and he found himself at some point bringing home files, prooves, writing diaries and fearing for his own life, until he was let go. And the Vatican Bank, many believe, prooved itself to be unreformable.

    Benedict was a conservative catholic, that's very true. He sucked at communication. But he was clean and he wanted a clean Church. And that's rare in there. In my opinion, nothing counts more.

    Benedict personal secretary decided to leak a number of documents to tell that story, as he was seeing Benedict struggle and being left alone to hang himself with his own weaknesses, such as publically saing that condoms are infact going to aggravate the spreading of STDs.

    Benedict didn't really want to be elected pope in 2005, and there are things that lead to think he was contemplating to quit from 2009.
    Francis was the closest in line to be elected in 2005, after Benedict. But he said he wasn't ready, so there it went.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    In a way it was a good decision I guess because it meant speeding up the catholic church's move into total irrelevance.
    I wish you were right about that. I guess it depends what part of the world you look at.


    -- One final thought: Benedict tried to be clean and payed a huge price. Whoever comes after him, knows that the attempt is going to put him on the spot, so it'sll take twice the courage. For a number of reasons, I don't see that happening, I'm cautiosly pessimistic.
    Last edited by loulou; 03-25-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimena View Post
    Well, I can tell you that here in Puerto Rico there's absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that he's Latino, of Italian ancestry. This discussion about who's Latino and who's not is just a lot of navel gazing by American Latinos. And I say this as a Latina myself, who has been told that I'm not Latina enough because I'm white and from Puerto Rico so I "couldn't" understand the struggles of illegal immigrants and didn't really encounter racial or ethnic prejudice against me in all the time I was in the US.
    Do you respond to this type of comment, Jimena, or do you bite your tongue? And if you do respond, what do you say?

    I am always fascinated how judgmental, bigoted, and presumptuous people can be when telling others that they "can't" or "don't" understand something about discrimination, cultural identity, etc.

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimena View Post
    And I say this as a Latina myself, who has been told that I'm not Latina enough because I'm white and from Puerto Rico so I "couldn't" understand the struggles of illegal immigrants and didn't really encounter racial or ethnic prejudice against me in all the time I was in the US.
    It's true though. You're not going to encounter racial and ethnic prejudice if you are perceived as white. At least not to the same extent as if you were seen as 'coloured.'

  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's true though. You're not going to encounter racial and ethnic prejudice if you are perceived as white. At least not to the same extent as if you were seen as 'coloured.'
    You must not have spent very much time in places with a substantial non-white population.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's true though. You're not going to encounter racial and ethnic prejudice if you are perceived as white. At least not to the same extent as if you were seen as 'coloured.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    You must not have spent very much time in places with a substantial non-white population.
    More specifically, with substantial Latino populations.

    There's white and there's white in the US at least and always has been, and white skin doesn't give one automatic entry into white-white. At various times and still in specific places Jews aren't white people, Italians aren't white people, Irish aren't white people, Catholics aren't white people, immigrants from places that have only white people aren't white people, and Latinos aren't white people.

    When I read Jimena's comment, I though of a Mexican friend who is Caucasian, who when moving out west to join her husband and started a job hunt, although the market was strong all the time and she had a degree from one of the Top 10 MBA programs and terrific job experience back East, got zero response when she used her maiden name, and as soon as she changed it to her (very Anglo) married name, suddenly was actively recruited, and this was in a region where the high tech industry has thousands of Chinese- and Indian-born employees, and it's not an isolated place ethnically.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's true though. You're not going to encounter racial and ethnic prejudice if you are perceived as white. At least not to the same extent as if you were seen as 'coloured.'
    I don't think you got my point. Whatever they thought about my experience in the US, I'm Latina. Period. Even if I haven't lived through those struggles myself, I have close family (parents and siblings) and friends that have gone through that, and it doesn't mean I'm not "Latina", or that I don't identify with those struggles, or that it doesn't piss me off that some people think they can get away with saying racist things in front of me or to me because I have a very good education, or I barely have an accent, or my skin is pale and I can pass as white (which, I'm not, at least as it is generally defined in the US. We're all racially mixed in PR in some way or another.).

    And don't you think it's prejudice when some members of an ethnic group tell me that I'm not Latina enough? Hell, Spanish is my first language, I was raised dancing Salsa and with Latin American soap operas, reading Mafalda and very aware of the US history in Latin America, the dictatorships and human rights abuses and the plight of the indigenous populations. There are a lot of Latinos in the US who do not have any of that history and still consider themselves Latinos. Who am I to deny them what they truly believe they are? The more the merrier, IMO. And our presence is stronger because of our diversity.

  15. #515

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    Jimena, as a Latina who has been told I'm too white or pale or speak too proper to really be Latina, I could not agree more. You took the words right out of my mouth!

  16. #516
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    So sounds like being Latino/Latina is more about culture than race. In which case Pope Francis qualifies.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's true though. You're not going to encounter racial and ethnic prejudice if you are perceived as white. At least not to the same extent as if you were seen as 'coloured.'
    But all it takes is saying where you're from.
    Then comes the classical "But you don't look Brazilian/Latin!"

    I realize I may be walking on eggshells here, so I'm already apologizing in case it comes across wrong.

    Everyone looks Latin. Specially in places like Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay... due to heavy immigration form basically everywhere in the world.
    The whole latino label seems more related to the indigenous people of Latin America.
    The Brazilian community in US and Canada is huge, yet they are not called latinos.

    I'm as white as white gets, with French and German last names, born, raised and residing in South America.
    I'm Latina. I think it's about culture, regardless of skin color.
    Lead me not into temptation. I can find it, and eat it, all by myself.

  18. #518
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    From my experience, being Latino simply refers to originating from a country in Latin America. One can be any race and still be Latino. But I see people differentiating between those who are meztizo, and everyone else. Colloquially that can take the form of "She's not really Latino--she's white."

    I tend to see those distinctions more in the West/SW.
    Last edited by agalisgv; 03-25-2013 at 11:04 PM.

  19. #519

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    That happens to me too, I'm Latina, but white and green-eyed, I have Italian last names (my grandparents) and my married name is Chinese (his grandparents). I when I have new patients expecting Dr. Chou to be Chinese and I come out

    Pope Francis is definitely Latin, here the news was one of our own is Pope... even if the people here don't like Argentinians* all that much

    *Porque siempre nos ganan en futbol

  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimena View Post
    I don't think you got my point. Whatever they thought about my experience in the US, I'm Latina. Period. Even if I haven't lived through those struggles myself, I have close family (parents and siblings) and friends that have gone through that, and it doesn't mean I'm not "Latina", or that I don't identify with those struggles, or that it doesn't piss me off that some people think they can get away with saying racist things in front of me or to me because I have a very good education, or I barely have an accent, or my skin is pale and I can pass as white (which, I'm not, at least as it is generally defined in the US. We're all racially mixed in PR in some way or another.).

    And don't you think it's prejudice when some members of an ethnic group tell me that I'm not Latina enough? Hell, Spanish is my first language, I was raised dancing Salsa and with Latin American soap operas, reading Mafalda and very aware of the US history in Latin America, the dictatorships and human rights abuses and the plight of the indigenous populations. There are a lot of Latinos in the US who do not have any of that history and still consider themselves Latinos. Who am I to deny them what they truly believe they are? The more the merrier, IMO. And our presence is stronger because of our diversity.
    I did get your point. But I can also understand the point of view of the activists who told you what they did because it's also true that you're much less likely to encounter racism when you can pass as white. So there's a certain level of prejudice which you will not encounter and they do.

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