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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post

    I'm inclined to go with whatever way the Church wants on the subject.
    Spoken like a good Catholic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I think the idea that your marriage won't be recognized by the Church unless you agree to raise your kids as Catholics to be a form of blackmail. If you say that marriage is a sacrament, then you should only let Catholics do it. Which means the non-Catholic should convert in order to be allowed. But leave any theoretical kids out of it. If you are going to let a non-Catholic be married in the Church if they agree to raise their kids as Catholic, then there is no reason you can't let them if they don't agree. You are using the fact that the person very much wants to be married in the church for whatever reason to exhort a promise out of them that they might not have given if they didn't have to in order to get married in the church. There is no ethical justification for it.
    If you aren't of a particular religion (or no religion at all) why would want to have your wedding in that particular venue i.e. a church if you are not a member of and have no intention of becoming a member of that religion? Because it's pretty, mom won't give me money unless I do it or it's a part of what my family believes but not me?

    I would have loved to have been married in an old Greek Orthodox Church but I'm not Orthodox so of course I couldn't use their church unless I agreed to convert to their religion…seems fair. So I got married in a place more appropriate for our beliefs. It’s no one’s fault I couldn’t pick that venue for my wedding it’s their rules. They don’t have to change, I do.

    When a child is baptized Catholic the parents and Godparents agree to raise the child in that spiritual environment and religion. If someone is opposed to that or really against it, then don't do it. But there is no ethical justification to lie to a priest and say 'I will raise my kids Catholic even though I hate your religion' just because you want that sacrament for an infant. Just don't do it and let the kid decide later in life.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    If you aren't of a particular religion (or no religion at all) why would want to have your wedding in that particular venue i.e. a church if you are not a member of and have no intention of becoming a member of that religion? Because it's pretty, mom won't give me money unless I do it or it's a part of what my family believes but not me?
    Because your prospective spouse is a Catholic and would like to be married in the parish church in which that spouse was raised?

    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    When a child is baptized Catholic the parents and Godparents agree to raise the child in that spiritual environment and religion. If someone is opposed to that or really against it, then don't do it. But there is no ethical justification to lie to a priest and say 'I will raise my kids Catholic even though I hate your religion' just because you want that sacrament for an infant. Just don't do it and let the kid decide later in life.
    I went to baptism classes and specifically asked the priest who was sort of in charge if I had to agree to raise my children as Catholic and was told that I did not. The priest asked my husband if he planned to bring the kids to church, my husband said that he did; the priest then asked me if I intended to interfere with that. I said I would not interfere, but I would not participate, either, and the priest said that that was good enough.

    So if someone lied....it wasn't me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Saying that I will raise my children as Catholics when I have no intention of doing so would be lying about something important to both me and the people I was lying to in order to get what I want. I consider such a lie an excellent example of lack of integrity. It has nothing to do with God or sinning from my perspective, although I do think that other perspectives should be considered in such things; it has to do with what I consider a standard of moral conduct for myself.

    I would have no more trouble telling a priest a social lie than I would anyone else; I don't see promising to raise my children a certain way or not as a social lie. I take raising children seriously. I take promises seriously. Lying about either of those things would not a be a little white lie to me.
    Yes, that's how I feel too. I would not lie in this situation. It would go against my own moral code.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Because your prospective spouse is a Catholic and would like to be married in the parish church in which that spouse was raised?
    That's a big reason people do it... because it's important to their prospective spouse. But there are other reasons.

    My point, though, was that either the church thinks a Catholic wedding is a sacrament only for Catholics or it doesn't. If it does think that, why are non-Catholics allowed to get married in a Catholic ceremony? If they don't think that, why are they forcing people to agree to raise their mythical children a certain way just to get that perk?

    I went to baptism classes and specifically asked the priest who was sort of in charge if I had to agree to raise my children as Catholic and was told that I did not. The priest asked my husband if he planned to bring the kids to church, my husband said that he did; the priest then asked me if I intended to interfere with that. I said I would not interfere, but I would not participate, either, and the priest said that that was good enough.

    So if someone lied....it wasn't me.
    No one lied in this case.

    Catholics are taught that you baptize your kid as a way to bring them into the community of the church. Something they emphasize in the classes we took is that you shouldn't do it to keep your kid out of Limbo (which they got rid of, thank goodness) or because Grandma/Grandpa is worried about their immortal soul. It's to bring them into the community. So, if you aren't in the community yourself, and you don't intend to bring your kid in (i.e., with regular mass attendance, bringing them up in the faith, etc.) there's no point really.

    We were still practicing with MacBoy. In fact I was in the choir and did the readings on Sundays once a month. But with Mini-Mac we were starting to drift and we did think about not baptizing her. But in the end we figured we were still attempting to practice and not doing it would guarantee we left the church and we weren't ready for that just yet.
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  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Since both you and suep have publicly identified as Methodist, I'll point out that in the Methodist tradition, a person can only enter the ministry if their spouse fully supports it. Why? Because the rigors of ministry are very hard on marriages and responsible for a great many divorces. This is widely known in the denomination and in other denominations, so spouses are screened along with the ministerial candidate.
    jmho of course
    Methodist tradition? Exactly what do you mean by that? I can tell you that it is certainly not how the church operates. While the person being ordained will be asked how their family feels about them entering the ministry, the spouse is not asked anything at all, and there certainly is no permission asked of any family member. I'd sure like to see a link to someplace--any place, where spousal permission is required for ordination in the United Methodist church.

    For anyone who cares to check it out--here a rather interesting FAQ section from the United Methodist General Board of Higher Education and Ministry

    If you are someone who doesn't like to click on links, or you've got a slow-loading phone, here's a couple of statements regarding family and clergy:

    15. What if my spouse has a full time career and cannot be a “traditional” pastor’s spouse?

    Then you’ll be joining about 85% of your ministry colleagues. It’s not the 1950’s anymore; churches no longer get 2 for 1. Your spouse should feel free to participate in church activities that she/he enjoys, but don’t expect service as your assistant, first lady/gentleman, UMW chair, UMM chair, Bible School director, Sunday School teacher, or church pianist. You may have to help the congregation understand this as well, but remember your spouse signed on to be there for you – not for your church. There is a vital difference. And while you may understand this, there may be times you need to address these issues with the church’s members.

    16. How can I prepare for the stresses that ministry places upon the pastor’s family?

    One way is to plan ahead. What will your boundaries be between church and home? How will you make personal decisions when you have to decide between the two? The church needs to realize that they are hiring you, not your family. Your family shouldn't feel they must conform to a particular role. If your spouse or family enjoys church activities, that will be great. If they don’t, it’s perfectly okay for them to find different ways to participate. They need to find spiritual fulfillment too. If expectations seem to get out of hand, rely on other resources to support you – your family, friends outside the congregation, colleagues, or even a good counselor. Regardless of where you serve, setting boundaries between work and personal life will be crucial to your long-term fulfillment and support in ministry.
    [sarcasm on] Yep--sure sounds like the church is out chasing down people for permission to ordain their spouses. [sarcasm off]
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  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Yes, that's how I feel too. I would not lie in this situation. It would go against my own moral code.


    That's a big reason people do it... because it's important to their prospective spouse. But there are other reasons.

    My point, though, was that either the church thinks a Catholic wedding is a sacrament only for Catholics or it doesn't. If it does think that, why are non-Catholics allowed to get married in a Catholic ceremony? If they don't think that, why are they forcing people to agree to raise their mythical children a certain way just to get that perk?.
    Where in Catholic teaching does it say marriage is a Sacrament only for Catholics? Catholic teaching is marriage between two validity baptized Methodists is a Sacrament. Marriage for all Christians is a sacrament.

    Now the Church feels differently if its a Catholic marrying outside of the Church's blessing (it use to make an exception for those who formally renounced. No more.).. But no marriage is not a Sacrament for just Catholics.

    However I will point out the Church will marry a non Catholic only if they are marrying a Catholic. They do it for the sake of the Catholic. They won't kick a Catholic out of the Church because they fell in love with a non Catholic. However marrying a non Catholic requires a dispensation- I believe. Sometimes dispensations even allow non Catholic ceremonies for good reasons. I.e I knew a couple whose dad was a Protestant minister. The Church granted a dispensation for the father to marry the couple. They went through Pre Cana and the like...

    This being said the the Church will not marry two non Catholics. My uncle who is a Priest wouldn't have been able to marry me a couple of years ago unless I was marrying a Catholic...


    Non Christians or marriage between a Christian and a non baptized person they are natural marriages. These marriages are still valid marriages though.
    Last edited by bek; 02-13-2013 at 05:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    And unmarried celibate priests don't have life experiences? Just because they never married means they don't have ailing sick family members etc. Experienced daily struggles etc.

    I'm inclined to go with whatever way the Church wants on the subject. However Paul talked about how the unmarried can be devoted to things of God whereas the married man has to focus on his wife and children..
    Personally, I think Paul hated women. I've said this on more than one occasion to my pastors. At least one of them laughed and said Paul was a "bit" zealous in his beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Well, no, she didn't argue that. She said there are downsides to having families when you are in the ministry, and that's true.
    That there are downsides to having families when you are a pastor is true. But then that is true for doctors, CEOs, counselors, military personnel - just about anyone who interacts with people.

    Since both you and suep have publicly identified as Methodist, I'll point out that in the Methodist tradition, a person can only enter the ministry if their spouse fully supports it. Why? Because the rigors of ministry are very hard on marriages and responsible for a great many divorces. This is widely known in the denomination and in other denominations, so spouses are screened along with the ministerial candidate.
    I will have to take your word for that. What happens when the ministerial candidate is single when entering into the seminary? Within my congregation we have had 6 or 7 young people entered the process prior to meeting a spouse starting the exploratory process at age 15, 16, or 17. I don't recall that their prospective spouse had to be interviewed by a board before the marriage license or ceremony, but then I am not privy to that information.

    is to miss the point that such a situation will tear a congregation apart. That's not what pastors are called to do. There's a reason there's a scriptural injunction against leaders in the church serving when they have messed-up families. Such issues can and do tear apart churches. There's really no other position where your private life so directly impacts your ability to fulfill your calling as it does in ministry. Pointing that out doesn't necessarily mean celibacy is the answer, but it is a real issue and shouldn't be glossed.
    There are indeed issues when you have relationships - fwiw, that particular situation that I posted, the pastor's wife and a prominent member of the church having an affair, really did not tear the church apart. The pastor did ask for re-assignment, I don't know his reasoning, but I suppose like anyone there was the pain he was experiencing and I would say that 95-97% of the church had no idea what happened. I did as part of the administrative council to which the staff/parish committee reports to - they had to tell us that the pastor had asked for reassignment. The next pastor who was with us for 25 years before his mandatory retirement at age 70.5 years would often tell us that life is "messy" and it is true. Life is messy.
    The pastors I know are called to serve people to hear the word of God and to provide spiritual guidance to all people. Not just the ones who follow the doctrine of the Church, but to all people. It's true their lives are generally an open book, their actions are judged by people to be within a certain standard - but in truth they are not God, nor do they claim to be. There is no perfect person celibate or not.

    My objection to the comments made by some is that one must/should/needs to be celibate to dedicate themselves to God, not distracted by sex, spouses, families, and to be able to adequately serve a congregation.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Where in Catholic teaching does it say marriage is a Sacrament only for Catholics?
    Where did I say that this is what Catholics believe? I did not. I am pointing out that the policy of the Catholic Church is logically inconsistent and that you can't justify their policy by saying marriage is a sacrament. Because of that, I believe that they should either only married two Catholics or, if they do allow a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic, to leave any prospective kids out of it.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Where did I say that this is what Catholics believe? I did not. I am pointing out that the policy of the Catholic Church is logically inconsistent and that you can't justify their policy by saying marriage is a sacrament. Because of that, I believe that they should either only married two Catholics or, if they do allow a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic, to leave any prospective kids out of it.
    Catholic teaching is marriage is not a right. Marriage comes with obligations to God and the Church. And the primary obligation is that marriage be open to Children, and that Children be raised in the faith. How can "children" be left out of marriage when the Church feels children are the biggest reason for them?

    Marrying a non Catholic doesn't free the Catholic from their obligations. If they don't like the obligations they are perfectly free to go elsewhere.

    As for logically inconsistent, the fact is their are plenty of Catholics who may love a non Catholic but they also love the Church. For them, they are of course going to still do their best to raise the children Catholic. They are also going to follow Church teachings in their marriage. If their partner understands these intentions by their potential Catholic spouse, and the Church makes him/her sign a form stating that he/she understands these obligations. Why shouldn't the Church bless the union?

    The logical consistency is this. Catholics who are married have certain obligations. These obligations don't change no matter who they are marrying. Of course these obligations are difficult in an interfaith marriage, which is why the Church wants those obligations made clear to both parties. Its up to them to decide whether they want to proceed or not proceed.

    If a Catholic were to marry outside the Church its excommunication. However for a Catholic to not attempt to raise their kids Catholic-they've already left the Church.
    Last edited by bek; 02-13-2013 at 01:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post

    If a Catholic were to marry outside the Church its excommunication. However for a Catholic to not attempt to raise their kids Catholic-they've already left the Church.
    This is not correct in the modern era. The old 1918 code of canon law excommunicated Catholics who did this, but that law is no longer followed.

    It is not the case that a Catholic marrying outside the Church is excommunicated. Instead, a marriage by a Catholic person outside the Church (without dispensation) is not seen as valid. The parties are not married, and so they are living in sin. They are not excommunicated, but are unable to receive the sacraments until they fix the situation and also make confession.


    ETA: This link, at the end (#11) explains this: http://www.dmdiocese.org/divorced-and-catholic-faqs.cfm
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    Who are the main candidates for the job of Pope?
    “Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none.” William Shakespeare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Who are the main candidates for the job of Pope?
    I haven't really seen any articles that have reasonable speculation. It is a pretty secretive process.


    I was surprised when I found out how broad the eligibility is- the person just has to be a male Catholic eligible to be ordained. I'm sure in modern times it will never happen- but laymen have been selected before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    the Church makes him/her sign a form stating that he/she understands these obligations.
    Perhaps I have been misled, but I believe the Church stopped requiring the non-Catholic to sign said form back in the 1980s.

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    The logical consistency is this. Catholics who are married have certain obligations.
    And the logical inconsistency is in their requirements of the non-Catholic, not the Catholic.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I was surprised when I found out how broad the eligibility is- the person just has to be a male Catholic eligible to be ordained. I'm sure in modern times it will never happen- but laymen have been selected before.
    They will only select a Cardinal and most are in their late 50s or older. The last time a non-Cardinal was elected was in the late 1300's. They also have to speak Italian since they are also the Bishop of Rome. There are many men on a short list including some from Africa and Latin America. Don't expect some upstart priest in their 20s to become Pope, it won't happen.

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    Once he's no longer Pope, is there a special way to address the former Pope?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    Once he's no longer Pope, is there a special way to address the former Pope?
    The Nope?
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    The Nope?
    I just choked!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    And the logical inconsistency is in their requirements of the non-Catholic, not the Catholic ....
    "
    Perhaps I have been misled, but I believe the Church stopped requiring the non-Catholic to sign said form back in the 1980s.

    .
    The Church no longer makes the non Catholic promise to raise the kids Catholic, this was done before. Because they recognize they have a right to their own conscience religious beliefs. I believe though a form may be signed where the other party may acknowledge that they understand the Catholic's obligations. Its not promising to help the Catholic, but its acknowledging that they know the promises the Catholic made.

    In this terms, the Church isn't requiring anything of the non Catholic. They are rather making requirements of the Catholic.

    e confession.


    ETA: This link, at the end (#11) explains this: http://www.dmdiocese.org/divorced-and-catholic-faqs.cfm
    I had heard the term excommunicated. But I did know that it didn't mean the person was barred forever more. They just had to go confession and get their marriage blessed.

    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post

    My objection to the comments made by some is that one must/should/needs to be celibate to dedicate themselves to God, not distracted by sex, spouses, families, and to be able to adequately serve a congregation.
    Well. Techincally there Priests in the Catholic Church who are married. This is in the Eastern rites. Although it tends to be discouraged by those in the Eastern rites in America... Some go to for example Lebanon get married and then come back.....

    Priestly celibacy is not part of the big Tradition I was talking about. Rather its little tradition. Catholics are free to think this could change and the Church could change it anytime it wants.

    However when priestly celibacy was established it was a much needed reform. For the Catholic Church there are a lot of good practical things that come out of it. Because yes a priest can donate more time to God. But also things like Priests don't have to worry about supporting families. Before Priestly celibacy was established you had widespread simony, Parents giving money/property that belonged to the Church to the children etc. Simony still exists and existed a lot in the Middle Ages, but celibacy curtailed this

    Say what you ever will about the wealth of the Catholic Church but the Popes in and of themselves at least recently don't accumulate a lot. Pope John Paul II in his personal quarters had a small bed (etc) And he left no money to anyone. Same I'm sure for Pope Benedict.

    I do know with a lot of mega churches it feels like these churches become little dynasties handed down to Children. Some denominations have more established structures that don't encourage it. But in some more newer ones, its all about who you know in someways....

    At the very least it would probably wise to keep the rule of bishops being celibate. (As the Eastern Orthodox I believe still do)

    Celibacy of priests is not a divine law. But we can argue that Scripture says "it would be better not to marry" The Church is going to have to do what needs to be done.. For a long time there were enough men willing to give up marriage and so given celibacy solved a lot of practical problems its what happened. Now we have a priest shortage. The married deaconate has been instituted again, but we will see the rest.
    Last edited by bek; 02-13-2013 at 11:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    And the logical inconsistency is in their requirements of the non-Catholic, not the Catholic.
    And also with who gets to get sacraments. You aren't supposed to take Holy Communion if you aren't Catholic. It's a sacrament just for Catholics. But you can participate in the sacrament of marriage if you aren't Catholic. I'd have to go look it up, but I think you can't really get Last Rites or go to Confession either. I suspect Priests will still let you but it won't count as having had the sacrament if you aren't married. Not all churches work that way. I've been to Christian churches that allow anyone to partake of Communion, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    Once he's no longer Pope, is there a special way to address the former Pope?
    I like Allezfred's answer (even if I was drinking at the time with the expected results ) but for a serious answer, they were talking about this on the news last night and there were a lot of questions like this including what happens with his papal ring. (Usually it gets buried with the dead pope but he's not dead.)
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

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    I read this morning that all the rings, robes, etc. for the current Pope are going to be burned, since they can't be buried.

    As for the next pope, I humbly nominate Catholic and man of faith Stephen Colbert.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

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