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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I remember reading at the time of Pope Benedict's election that the next Pope would likely come from Africa or Latin America because that is where Catholicism is expanding. That was part of the prediction about a younger Pope leading the Church into the future.

    I wouldn't bet on either one, though.
    I think an African pope could happen.... He actually wouldn't be the first though Pope Victor I was from Africa...(Although don't know what his skin color was...) In fact there were a few from North Africa...

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    Hmmm. The rate of pedophilia among priests is actually slightly lower than among the general male population.

    Why would you want to receive the sacrament of marriage in a Catholic church if you weren't going to raise your children as Catholics?

    I've always felt vaguely sorry for the children of ministers that I've know. The community keeps them under a microscope other children don't have to endure. I'm totally okay with the priesthood as a vocation that excludes marriage. I'm totally NOT okay with it not being open for women.

    Pope Benedict made me very nervous when he was first chosen, but from time to time he really surprised me with tiny steps towards loosening some of the rules of the church that I don't like. His stand on the use of condoms was a big story at the time.

    Random thoughts from this thread...

    I'm hopeful and will be following with great interest as the next Pope is chosen.
    ‎"You emerge victorious from the maze you've been travelling in." Oct 21,2012- Best Fortune Cookie Ever!

  3. #83
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    Listened to some speculation today with regards to the push to elect either an African or a Latin American Pope. A short list was read but I am so bad with names, I immediately forgot.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    Why would you want to receive the sacrament of marriage in a Catholic church if you weren't going to raise your children as Catholics?
    I couldn't have cared less about receiving anything from the Catholic Church and only considered the idea because it was something that my husband wanted.

    I had no intention of raising my children as Catholics, however; that would have been hypocritical and dishonest of me, IMO, since I don't believe in Catholicism.

    I would imagine that there are quite a few couples who intend to have interfaith marriages, too, and would want the blessing of both the Catholic Church and their own churches, and the freedom to raise their children with both faiths.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    I've always felt vaguely sorry for the children of ministers that I've know. The community keeps them under a microscope other children don't have to endure. I'm totally okay with the priesthood as a vocation that excludes marriage
    Speaking as the child of a minister, I am quite happy that my parents met, married and had me, even if it did mean that a few narrow-minded people thought I should be some sort of role model. I don't figure that I had it any worse than the children of politicians, schoolteachers or other community-pillar types whose children have to endure the same sort of scrutiny.

    Really, if we are going to require celibacy of anyone who has a demanding job with lots of stress or who might have children who might be subjected to community scrutiny, most of us should just give up on the whole idea of ever having sex or a family.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

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    Child sex abuse rates amongst priests and the general male population are not really known. But there isn't much indication that rates are lower with priests (one study showed an abuse rate of around 10% of priests in one year. In other years the number was lower). What we do know is when issues were discovered with priests, those priests were allowed continued access to children--particularly children from vulnerable populations. And that was approved all the way from the Vatican.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    There are two African cardinals on the list as well as a few Latin American popes!
    That's never going to happen.

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    I know you're supposed to give up something for Lent but this seems a bit much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by centerstage01 View Post
    I know you're supposed to give up something for Lent but this seems a bit much.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I would imagine that there are quite a few couples who intend to have interfaith marriages, too, and would want the blessing of both the Catholic Church and their own churches, and the freedom to raise their children with both faiths.
    It's not a blessing. It's the sacrament of marriage. And you should only receive any sacrament if you are a practicing Catholic with proper intentions. Otherwise it would be sinning.

    I would hope that some time in the future there will be a Pope from Africa. Hopefully she'll be a woman- technically- you don't have to be an ordained priest to be the Pope.
    ‎"You emerge victorious from the maze you've been travelling in." Oct 21,2012- Best Fortune Cookie Ever!

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    Why would you want to receive the sacrament of marriage in a Catholic church if you weren't going to raise your children as Catholics?
    Honestly? I have a couple of reasons. First, to make my mother happy. It would mean a lot to her, and since my parents will be (likely) helping finance the wedding, there might be conditions attached. Second, I'm from a very Catholic culture. My extended family was big into the Catholic Charismatic movement which was (and is) big in Latin America. I've only been to 1 non Catholic wedding, EVER, so I have a hard time imaging a wedding without the Catholic ceremony. I'm an atheist, and I find the Catholic church in most ways quite awful, but it is very closely linked to my culture.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Coming from a Protestant background into the Catholic church, I see the issue of married priests from a different perspective. The pressure on spouses and children of pastors is very damaging sometimes. And the job of a pastor/priest is very consuming often leaving inadequate time to nurture a marriage and be a good parent. In that respect, celibacy frees priests to devote their whole energy to the church and does not leave a spouse or children without adequate attention/devotion from a husband/father. At the same time, it also makes it difficult for priests to have balance and space away from their work.
    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    I did not say that. Read my post again.
    I did read the post as I assume taf and suep did. You could, and did argue that celibacy is mandatory to be able to devote his time to his parishioners. I don't see this as true. I think that the pastor whose wife had an affair with another man in the parish experiences the pain of that and can relate to others. I doubt that his being a pastor lead to that affair after all there are many women and men who have affairs, not just pastor's spouses. I think that the pastor who has a son who is on the streets because of drug use can relate to people with those problems, or the pastor whose newborn daughter died on Christmas can relate to his/her parish. Just as the pastor who lost his best friend to AIDS on the day his son was born. Pastors who have happy marriages - everyone of them have experiences that can be used in practice.

    Just because you believe that one has to be totally committed to something completely doesn't mean that he makes a better priest than the married priest. And children of any person who is supposedly moral or is in a public spotlight are expected to have certain behaviors. It's just how the parents and the child react to the situation that counts.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post
    In Germany, if a Catholic and Protestant want to get married in a Catholic church they have to agree to raise their children in Catholic faith.
    It's not just in Germany. It's everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    I'm an atheist, and I find the Catholic church in most ways quite awful, but it is very closely linked to my culture.
    I'm an atheist but I find the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Mass to be majestic. But that's probably because I was raised Catholic so it's part of my childhood.

    I think the idea that your marriage won't be recognized by the Church unless you agree to raise your kids as Catholics to be a form of blackmail. If you say that marriage is a sacrament, then you should only let Catholics do it. Which means the non-Catholic should convert in order to be allowed. But leave any theoretical kids out of it. If you are going to let a non-Catholic be married in the Church if they agree to raise their kids as Catholic, then there is no reason you can't let them if they don't agree. You are using the fact that the person very much wants to be married in the church for whatever reason to exhort a promise out of them that they might not have given if they didn't have to in order to get married in the church. There is no ethical justification for it.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    I did read the post as I assume taf and suep did. You could, and did argue that celibacy is mandatory to be able to devote his time to his parishioners. I don't see this as true. I think that the pastor whose wife had an affair with another man in the parish experiences the pain of that and can relate to others. I doubt that his being a pastor lead to that affair after all there are many women and men who have affairs, not just pastor's spouses. I think that the pastor who has a son who is on the streets because of drug use can relate to people with those problems, or the pastor whose newborn daughter died on Christmas can relate to his/her parish. Just as the pastor who lost his best friend to AIDS on the day his son was born. Pastors who have happy marriages - everyone of them have experiences that can be used in practice.

    Just because you believe that one has to be totally committed to something completely doesn't mean that he makes a better priest than the married priest. And children of any person who is supposedly moral or is in a public spotlight are expected to have certain behaviors. It's just how the parents and the child react to the situation that counts.
    Replace "priest" with any job position and I think you've hit something on the head here. Just because someone devotes their entire life to something doesn't mean that they're necessarily better. All our life experiences give us lessons we can pass on.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    Replace "priest" with any job position and I think you've hit something on the head here. Just because someone devotes their entire life to something doesn't mean that they're necessarily better. All our life experiences give us lessons we can pass on.
    And unmarried celibate priests don't have life experiences? Just because they never married means they don't have ailing sick family members etc. Experienced daily struggles etc.

    I'm inclined to go with whatever way the Church wants on the subject. However Paul talked about how the unmarried can be devoted to things of God whereas the married man has to focus on his wife and children. In fact there's a great recent example. I once heard James Dobson tell a story of how his father was a traveling Evangelist. And he traveled all over but James was starting to give his mother some trouble so the mother called the father and said, I need you here. So the father dropped everything all of his Evangelistic events and took a small church in Texas during James's teaching years.

    Once James went to college, the Dad went back to traveling preaching, but his ministry was never as big again. Of course his son became very successful and the father did the absolutely right thing. How can he call responsiblity to others if he's not showing responsibility to his own family.... However in our Church, priests can be sent anywhere at any time, there's no family to think about or consider. That makes them more flexible. They can be moved any where at a moments notice because there frankly isn't the ties.

    I know John Paul II was very strong on keeping a celibate church. Partly because back in his days in Poland John Paul from what I understand did a lot of very dangerous risky things against the Communists (and maybe the Nazis too). He feels that he was partly able to take these stances-do these things because he didn't have a families safety to worry about.

    It is what it is, I will go with whatever my Church decides on it. And I could point you can have christian counselors who are married etc.

    As for marriage at the end of the day, I think the Church would ask how can the a Catholic who is truly Catholic and truly believes in what the Church teaches be a-okay with their children not being raised Catholic.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    I'm not sure why the Church should change orthodoxy...Yes some of our positions may not be popular but the Church shouldn't take positions just because they are popular. Its not like the Churches that are making deals with the Culture are gaining all kinds of membership in and of themselves. The areas where Anglicanism for example is growing is the more Conservative areas... The areas where they are compromising with the Culture, they are losing church attendance. The more conservative Protestant churches are growing the less conservative ones aren't.
    But should "growth" be the criterion by which Christians assess the Church's success? That doesn't sound like a scriptural value - was that Jesus's mandate? It sounds like quite a "worldly" approach to me.

    Also, what in Jesus's life leads you to believe that unchanging tradition is all important. Yes, Christ respected the Jewish traditions and institutions within which he was raised, but also opposed them or innovated on them when they ran counter to the needs of the people e.g. healing on the sabbath. For me (an erstwhile Christian and now an agnostic), it is the interpreting of the Bible and tradition in the light of contemporary needs that defines faith. It is an adventure with God, not a paint-by-numbers thing. And the need for a community of believers with whom to do this, is what gives the Church vitality and makes it relevant.
    Last edited by nlloyd; 02-12-2013 at 06:22 AM.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by nlloyd View Post
    But should "growth" be the criterion by which Christians assess the Church's "success"? That doesn't sound like a scriptural value - was that Jesus's mandate? - it sounds like quite a "worldly" take to me.

    Also, what in Jesus's life leads you to believe that unchanging tradition is all important. Yes, Christ respected the Jewish traditions and institutions within which he was raised, but also innovated on them or opposed them when they ran counter to the needs of the people e.g. healing on the sabbath. For me (an erstwhile Christian and now an agnostic), it is the interpreting of the Bible and tradition in the light of contemporary needs that defines faith. It is an adventure with God, not a paint-by-numbers thing. And the need for a community of believers with whom to do this, is what makes the Church vital and relevant.
    Jesus changed practices. Jesus did not change fundamental teachings. For example on the issue of healing on the Sabbath Jesus asked "is it wrongful to do good on the Sabbath" Jesus was calling them out because they were keeping some outward signs of the Law but not the heart of the Law. Jesus would say that the whole point of the Law was "Here Oh Israel the Lord your God is One. You shall Love the Lord your God with all your Heart, Soul and Might, and Your Neighbor as Yourself." That was always the main law. And that was the point Jesus was trying to make. The purification laws and the rituals they all were there for a purpose and served a point. However they were never suppose to be more important than the main law which was loving your neighbor as your self! So what Jesus was trying to say is don't you understand? Don't you understand what the main Law is and that this is how everything else should flow from?

    That's why the Good Samaritan is such a great story with the Levite in the Priest who passed the man on the side of the road probably because of purification laws. They had to be pure for the temple and to "worship God". However, Jesus was saying how is that truly worshiping God?

    And the point is correct leaving the man besides the side of the road violates Jewish law. Essentially what you have in all of those stories is just Jesus calling out a few for their legalism. It was really unlawful to do good on the Sabbath.

    Jesus showed kindness to the outcasts of society, but He did not in any way state that immoral behavior was a-okay. And in fact Jesus actually took some moral stands and took them a step further. For example when he condemned divorce and called remarriage adultery. He would continously tell people your sins are forgiven-sin no more.

    When I talk about Traditions I'm not talking about things like Latin Mass, priestly celibacy. I'm talking teachings on morals and also theology too. These are things that are non changing. Practices can be.

    Jesus came to preach repentance but also to in the end bring attention to that main law, I mentioned. However He did not come to the main moral laws...

    Every culture has its issues and its big time problems/prejudices. I don't want to go into Scripture God's word and read them with my own biases/wants. Its very easy to go into something and want to see things your way, even if you don't mean to. Instead I want to go in there with a humble attitude which says what is the Truth God-what do you have to say. That's how I want to read Scripture.
    Last edited by bek; 02-12-2013 at 06:37 AM.

  18. #98
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    The idea that people don't want the church to change it's traditional teachings just horrifies me.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    If you are going to let a non-Catholic be married in the Church if they agree to raise their kids as Catholic, then there is no reason you can't let them if they don't agree.
    What? The Catholic Church holds positions that are not logically sound?

    The Church doesn't recognize my marriage--or does it? My husband and I had a civil ceremony. But he considered it important to have our kids baptized, so we did that. The first priest was senile and didn't check the record, but the second time, the priest did check the record and refused to baptize my poor bastard daughter until my FIL made a donation to the church. Then everyone was all smiles and the baptism took place just as if we had had that sacrament after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    The idea that people don't want the church to change it's traditional teachings just horrifies me.
    The idea that the Catholic Church is seen by some as a bastion of religious purity standing firm in its beliefs as it is assailed from within and without by the forces of liberalism amuses me. The Catholic Chuch might lag behind the curve, but the Church has been quite willing to adapt and absorb the world's heathen ways whenever it has been seen as necessary enough.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

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    I hope he and his boyfriend will be very happy.

    (My apologies if somebody already used a similar joke, I couldn't be bothered to read anything other than the first few posts! )
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

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