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  1. #41
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    So could someone please explain the drama around this? I don't see why this is a big deal. Seems to me a rational and fair to all decision to make. Le shrug. That Mussolini granddaughter and her "He is abandoning his flock!!" is incomprehensible to me. Or is this the press sensationalizing it on a slow Monday?
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  2. #42
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    The drama is just because while it isn't unprecedented in history, it is in modern history. A pope stepping down is rare- it would be like Queen Elizabeth stepping down.

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    The last time it happened was 1415 AD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I am not sure women in these countries have wide and easy excess to birth control to begin with, regardless of religion.
    How much of the reason for limited access, in some of those countries, is due to opposition from the Catholic Church?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    The areas where Anglicanism for example is growing is the more Conservative areas... .
    Speaking as an Anglican, I don't see any huge influx of ex-Catholics joining the Anglican church because they think the Catholic Church is too liberal.

    All the ex-Catholics in my parish joined the Anglican church for exactly the opposite reason.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    No. Pedophiles do not molest children because they are single. That is a complete misunderstanding of that pathology.

    Coming from a Protestant background into the Catholic church, I see the issue of married priests from a different perspective. The pressure on spouses and children of pastors is very damaging sometimes. And the job of a pastor/priest is very consuming often leaving inadequate time to nurture a marriage and be a good parent. In that respect, celibacy frees priests to devote their whole energy to the church and does not leave a spouse or children without adequate attention/devotion from a husband/father. At the same time, it also makes it difficult for priests to have balance and space away from their work.
    Oh please--that is the lamest thing I've heard in a long time. I'll be sure to let me sister and bil (the two ordained pastors) know that they've been unable to give adequate attention to each other these past 30 years of their marriage and they've allowed their kids to suffer neglect as well. Being a pastor is a job, like any other job. There are times where there are greater demands on your time, but to say that you cannot have a family/be married and be a pastor at the same time is just ignorant.
    "Me, cutie/chicken, the egg cup, I am the hammer of my spoon!"--Jen_Faith translation

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    I heard he's gonna move in with you.

    Stop scaring me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andora View Post
    Never change, danceronice. Your ridiculous take on women never fails to bring me joy.
    It's a textbook example of internalised discrimination as well. So altogether very amusing.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by suep1963 View Post
    Oh please--that is the lamest thing I've heard in a long time. I'll be sure to let me sister and bil (the two ordained pastors) know that they've been unable to give adequate attention to each other these past 30 years of their marriage and they've allowed their kids to suffer neglect as well. Being a pastor is a job, like any other job. There are times where there are greater demands on your time, but to say that you cannot have a family/be married and be a pastor at the same time is just ignorant.
    I did not say that. Read my post again.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    What WOULD prompt me to really leave (and probably find the most rigid Orthodox or High Anglican church I would) would be substantial liberalization. The world does not need more relaxed standards. The last thing I want are women priests (I can't even work for secular female bosses because they're too process and emotion-oriented instead of results and rationality oriented) and idiotic kum-bay-ya-ing instead of order. The job of a Church is not to pat you on the head, give you a cookie, and tell you to do whatever feels good because if it feels good, it must be right and moral.
    Wow, thanks for generalizing all women as emotional and idiotic. I happen to be a very results-oriented and logical type of woman, but the world also needs people who are process oriented and in tune with emotions. And everything in between. Male and female.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    But in reality I would bet a lot of practicing Catholics do use birth control. It's not like the Catholic families I know have a gazillion kids. Two is the usual number, in keeping with the national average.
    I've heard 90% in the US & Europe.

    On a humorous note: Pope Decides to Un-Retire, Stirring Controversy It's all about the Twitter account, folks.
    BARK LESS. WAG MORE.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    Wow, thanks for generalizing all women as emotional and idiotic. I happen to be a very results-oriented and logical type of woman, but the world also needs people who are process oriented and in tune with emotions. And everything in between. Male and female.
    The "masculine" way of management - ruling by fear with an iron fist - doesn't work and results in disheartened, disgruntled employees who don't take pride in their work. They only have to do just enough not to get yelled at. There's always a balance. The best bosses, IMO, are process-oriented but don't forget that they're working with people. Doesn't matter if they're men or women.

    Count me in with IceAlisa as one of those who doesn't really get what the whole drama with the Pope is. There's a first time for everything! Even if it's a "first time in 600 years."

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    Wow, thanks for generalizing all women as emotional and idiotic. I happen to be a very results-oriented and logical type of woman, but the world also needs people who are process oriented and in tune with emotions. And everything in between. Male and female.
    Most of my bosses have been women in my life. I've had good ones and bad ones, but I imagine I'd have had good and bad male ones as well. The upside is I've had some excellent mentors in the great female bosses I've had that my friends with predominantly male bosses haven't had. It never sits well with me when someone spouts that women aren't good in leadership roles with b.s. "evidence" to back it up. The opportunities have been so few compared to what men have had over decades.

    The Catholic church is a great example of that.
    "How you treat the weak is
    Your true nature calling" -- Jane's Addiction

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    How much of the reason for limited access, in some of those countries, is due to opposition from the Catholic Church?
    That can be answered if you look at the access to medical care in general, no just birth control.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    That can be answered if you look at the access to medical care in general, no just birth control.
    Not really. There's limited access to medical care, yes. But there'a also massive lobbying on the catholic church's part against birth control measures which is doing massive harm given the prevalence of HIV infections.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    [...]

    Catholicism's biggest strength and why it has survived for as long as it has and become as big has it has is because of its understanding of Revelation and the strong belief that Scripture and Tradition are equal. And I'm talking about Tradition I'm talking about faith and morals. The idea that the Catholic faith is a revealed faith that has been passed down through generations. And the concept that Truth doesn't change. We may grow in our understanding but the fundamentals of truth don't.

    [...] Catholics just say what has the Church traditionally taught on said subject and the answer is finished. We had our Church council discussed this and the matter is settled forevermore. [...] If people want a more "modern form of Chrisitanity, there are plenty of Protestant branches too choose from.

    [...]
    I would argue that one of the reasons it has 'reached' so many people and survived so long is its interdependent relationship with colonialism. Look at how many Catholics come from colonies (former and present). Many people were forcibly converted (some of my ancestors were threatened with death), and it was often dangerous to practice any religion but Catholicism. Yet people found creative ways to do so. Look at santeria, for instance, in which orishas were made present under the guise of saints. For some, this was a way to preserve religious traditions from the period before the Middle Passage. For others, the belief systems worked hand in hand, such that the saints were understood through Yoruba (and other) traditions.

    Catholicism, for all its claims to a traditional lineage, has actually been transformed by those who follow the faith. The people of the colonies for instance, have not just inherited a 'pure' form of Catholicism, rather, they have actively shaped the religion and how it is practiced today. In some places, the faith is negotiated in ways that speak to a legacy of slavery and colonialism and all that entails. There are priests and nuns who do not actively reproduce the Vatican's gender and sexuality ideologies, instead passing out prophylactics (Benedict didn't like that too much), acknowledging the existence of people who fall outside a two-sex system, etc.. I identify as Catholic but do not take direction from the Vatican. I attended World Youth Day some years ago in Germany to meet up with other Catholics involved in queer rights, feminist, and anti-racist movements, and I did encounter such people. Just because the Vatican isn't backing something, doesn't mean it doesn't have an important role in the everyday lives of many Catholics.

    I would argue that the Vatican's stance on sexuality and gender, for instance, is no less divisive than breaks from 'tradition'.
    Last edited by Bournekraatzfan; 02-12-2013 at 05:07 AM. Reason: clarity

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Not really. There's limited access to medical care, yes. But there'a also massive lobbying on the catholic church's part against birth control measures which is doing massive harm given the prevalence of HIV infections.
    But this is also the case in non-Catholic countries, in the sense that general access to health care is limited, including access to birth control. Other religions restrict birth control as well so when they are in power, things aren't much different. Certainly, the Catholic Church plays a large role in limiting access to birth control and abortion in many predominantly Catholic developing countries. IIRC, there was a case of death from ectopic pregnancy in a central American country where all abortion is banned.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Not really. There's limited access to medical care, yes. But there'a also massive lobbying on the catholic church's part against birth control measures which is doing massive harm given the prevalence of HIV infections.
    absolutely. especially when you look at the role the Catholic Church plays in foreign aid. In some cases, they provide 25% of a country's aid, and as such, have a lot of influence over policies around prophylactics. They can prevent government funding of social programs that do not meet their standards (ie. comply with the Vatican's teachings). Some groups of bishops involved with
    aid have previously denied and continue to deny funding to programs that distribute condoms, birth control and/or info about abortions.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    IIRC, there was a case of death from ectopic pregnancy in a central American country where all abortion is banned.
    There was a case in Ireland where a non-Catholic died after being denied a life-saving abortion.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    But this is also the case in non-Catholic countries, in the sense that general access to health care is limited, including access to birth control. Other religions restrict birth control as well so when they are in power, things aren't much different. Certainly, the Catholic Church plays a large role in limiting access to birth control and abortion in many predominantly Catholic developing countries. IIRC, there was a case of death from ectopic pregnancy in a central American country where all abortion is banned.
    I read that there was a death in Ireland that could have been prevented if abortion had been legal:

    http://storyofwomen.wordpress.com/

    I'm not sure if Ireland qualifies as a "third world country" where access to other medical care is limited.

    I just hope that the new pontiff does something about the abuse cases (including the Irish laundries) other than protecting the higher ups who didn't do anything in response to the reports.

  19. #59

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    Ziggy and the Pope shacking up together. That I would like to see.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
    There was a case in Ireland where a non-Catholic died after being denied a life-saving abortion.
    Heartbreaking and criminal.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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