U.S. Ladies [#7] Wagner's Rink Cycle

[cbd1235]

I just can't stand how everyone seems to know exactly how everyone will skate at worlds. People need to stop writing off the top US ladies and let them decide their fate without all this brainwash stuff. I think both will come out singing at worlds but again again I just wish them the best.

Maybe Ashley will land 3/3, maybe she'll leave it out but at least we should stop putting the writing on the wall as of right now.

[demetriosj]

So now we give up on Gracie because she isn't dominating like some people think she should? Her best years are after Sochi simple as that. The same goes for Osmond, Tuk and Adelina.

How do you know this?!

[Sylvia]

Jammers doesn't actually know this; he just believes it.

I just can't stand how everyone seems to know exactly how everyone will skate at worlds. People need to stop writing off the top US ladies <snip>

I agree with you, but not everyone is doing this. Internet skating discussion forums always are going to include fans who "write off" skaters after they don't perform up to expectations in their most recent competition(s) and they tend to be the loudest (and most repetitive) voices.

[AJ Skatefan]

And what happened with Gold? Was it jet lag or she just reached her peak for Nationals or it was all because of the nerves? She looked scared and out of shape

Probably all of the above. It was her biggest international competition to date. She was probably scared to death. She just needs time.

[Coco]

The first mistake in the SP was pure mental error, she was 2nd guessing herself. The 2nd mistake in the SP seemed like a timing issue, probably thinking too much.

Not sure at what point in the LP she got the nose bleed, but I wonder how that affected her.

[Sylvia]

Here were the quotes by Gracie Gold that were distributed to the media at Four Continents:

(on goals) This Four Continents is about experience. I haven’t had very many international competitions. To compete with world medalists, to even be in the same warm up with skaters like Mao Asada is amazing.

(on free skate) It wasn’t a very good performance. I have a lot of time to prepare for worlds and think I will give a much better performance at worlds. I was nervous for my skate and was shaky on my practices. I wasn’t at the top of my game.

(on worlds) I don’t think I lost much steam. It’s just not what I’m capable of doing. I’m going to go home and take it easy for about a week to recover mentally and physically before I start my training for worlds. I want to be top 10, but mostly it will be great experience for me.

(on Four Continents experience) It was a little shaky. I am more tired after the U.S. Championships than I thought I would be. I know I can do so much better. I skated so much better at nationals in the free skate and earlier in the season in my short program.

[bek]

But I still don't quite get it. What exactly are people asking for? Sounds like IIRC, some want to kick Gold off the team after this showing and replace her with Gao (just like, strangely enough, the call was to replace Czisny with...gasp...Gold!...last year). Or is it that folks are arguing for Gao to have been 2nd at Natls above Gold? Because even if Gao was 3rd the world team would STILL be Wagner/Gold...

Man...

I don't want Gold/Wagner kicked of the team. What I want is a change to how worlds is decided and also Nationals to be judged more fairly. That's it.

I never bought into the whole Gold should go to worlds.. (last year) At the end of the day I suspect the issue is Nationals determine the event but Nationals is judged questionably to say the least.....

[RD]

Gold has been put in a very undesirable situation...she's on the world team, and one of those quotes state that she is shooting for top 10...which, FOR HER, is quite a reasonable goal given her experience level - but at the same time, you've got a whole legion of US skating fans (and media folk) who wants results NOW and who want those 3 spots...and they will demand not just top 10 but perhaps top 6-8 finish from her (depending on how Wagner does), and if she doesn't get that, woe betide her...the vultures will be relentless in their feasting...


BTW, I include myself in there...I'll willing to admit that. It has been frustrating to see the US women sabotage their chances again and again, year after year...and realistically, I just don't see things changing this year. I'd LOVE to be wrong about this...

[olympic]

..BTW, I include myself in there...I'll willing to admit that. It has been frustrating to see the US women sabotage their chances again and again, year after year...and realistically, I just don't see things changing this year. I'd LOVE to be wrong about this...

I hear you. I do the same thing and it's out of frustration. I've been frustrated since '09 - Czisny was a rotated 3 loop away from 8th place and 3 spots for Vancouver. Nagasu was a properly executed 2x away from a bronze medal at '10 Worlds, Flatt's injuries at '11 Worlds, Czisny's injuries at a weaker '12 Worlds ... ARGH!

Anyway, you gotta have hope. Wagner and Gold are capable of around 4th and 9th IMO. However, the USFSA has got to dispense with the hidden injury nonsense of the past couple of years. Too bad there isn't a pill for headcaseyness, though.

[fenway2]

It hasn't been just the US women who have sabotaged themselves. The US judges have done a terrible job judging US Nationals. I don't know if they're heavily pressured by USFS but they've consistently propped up headcases like Alissa and Agnes (though, despite all her gifts, she's yet to make a world team, thankfully), while holding back some of their more consistent skaters. It seems every year lately, after US Nationals, we have the same angry discussion about WHY the US propped up a certain skater and then that very skater goes on to predictably bomb at worlds. I just wish the judges judged what they saw on the ice. Yeah, not going to happen, I know.

[jlai]

It hasn't been just the US women who have sabotaged themselves. The US judges have done a terrible job judging US Nationals. I don't know if they're heavily pressured by USFS but they've consistently propped up headcases like Alissa and Agnes (though, despite all her gifts, she's yet to make a world team, thankfully), while holding back some of their more consistent skaters. It seems every year lately, after US Nationals, we have the same angry discussion about WHY the US propped up a certain skater and then that very skater goes on to predictably bomb at worlds. I just wish the judges judged what they saw on the ice. Yeah, not going to happen, I know.

actually, they did reward their more consistent jumpers (e.g. Flatt).

USFS isn't proactive enough in their decision making (in general, not specifically judging related). So they make conservative decisions that yield conservative results. And by making decisions to avoid criticisms, criticisms is exactly what they will get into. Just look at the way they send girls to JGP--they can't find a controversy-free way of assigning girls to JGP, so they stick to something that sometimes don't work, creating more controversies.

Yes, that and generous calling re: jumps at nationals, etc. etc/

[Mayra]

Gold has been put in a very undesirable situation...she's on the world team, and one of those quotes state that she is shooting for top 10...which, FOR HER, is quite a reasonable goal given her experience level - but at the same time, you've got a whole legion of US skating fans (and media folk) who wants results NOW and who want those 3 spots...and they will demand not just top 10 but perhaps top 6-8 finish from her (depending on how Wagner does), and if she doesn't get that, woe betide her...the vultures will be relentless in their feasting...

Meh, I've been one of Gold's biggest cheerleaders on this board and I honestly don't hope for anything beyond a top 10 finish(and even then it's not a given).

Watching Mao at 4CC's and Kostner at Euros, it really hit me how different these skaters are from their early years. They always had excellent basics, but that extra something that takes someone to the next level as an artist wasn't there. In fact it has taken them years and a lot of bumps in the road to reach this level. It's not always a smooth ride to the top and that's ok.

The "vultures" can feast all they want. The ice is slippery and Gold is going to fall multiple times and she's going to find a way to pick herself up. Whether she picks herself up to become something bigger in the sport or does enough to make herself proud(yes the journey matters), only time will tell.

In the meantime, my hope is that she takes everything in stride and learns from her experiences. JMO

[fenway2]

actually, they did reward their more consistent jumpers (e.g. Flatt).

True, partly. They rewarded Rachael when she delivered at nationals in 2009 and 2010 but they denied her the title in 2009 in favor of propping up Alissa, a headcase. Then Alissa bombed at worlds, predictably. And when Rachael skated poorly at 2011 nationals, they propped her up and screwed over Mirai. And Rachael bombed at worlds. Very rarely has their propping up a female skater benefitted them come worlds. Just judge what happens on the ice.

[Nomad]

Gold has been put in a very undesirable situation...she's on the world team, and one of those quotes state that she is shooting for top 10...which, FOR HER, is quite a reasonable goal given her experience level - but at the same time, you've got a whole legion of US skating fans (and media folk) who wants results NOW and who want those 3 spots...and they will demand not just top 10 but perhaps top 6-8 finish from her (depending on how Wagner does), and if she doesn't get that, woe betide her...the vultures will be relentless in their feasting...

Every US lady who's gone to Worlds the last few years has had to compete there knowing that she HAS TO to get those 3 spots back. And a lot of them go in carrying that load with relatively little experience. Between 2007 and 2012, the most successful, experienced US lady was Alyssa Czisny, with 12 international and 4 national medals. Wagner is closing in, with 9 international and 5 national medals. Gold, nowhere close. But if she and Wagner fail to deliver, the villagers will be running for the torches and the pitchforks...

[bek]

Every US lady who's gone to Worlds the last few years has had to compete there knowing that she HAS TO to get those 3 spots back. And a lot of them go in carrying that load with relatively little experience. Between 2007 and 2012, the most successful, experienced US lady was Alyssa Czisny, with 12 international and 4 national medals. Wagner is closing in, with 9 international and 5 national medals. Gold, nowhere close. But if she and Wagner fail to deliver, the villagers will be running for the torches and the pitchforks...

Honestly though Nomad. Its not the skaters I want to torch. Although (I will clarify I absolutely think both Flatt and Czisny had no business skating in Worlds the last two years with their injuries. Follow Evan's example and bow out when your that injured and can't do their jumps).

However in general the skaters can only do their best. Who I really want to torch is the Judges at US Nationals. And I suspect that's who a lot of people want to torch. If you notice the one year nobody's screaming crying about was 2010. Flatt and Nagasu have never been torched and pitch forked. And the reason being is while there were a ton of questions about Mirai winning vs Rachael. In general I don't think anyone really disagreed with the Nagasu/Flatt team. It didn't feel like anyone outside those two really deserved different placements. So both girls did their best, didn't work out okay. There's no, you judged this person soo unfairly.

But the last few years it felt different. US Nationals was so questionably judged that its hard to imagine why people wouldn't be upset. I don't think fans are mad at the skaters. They are mad at the Judges. Its just there's no judges dart.

And its kind of like watching history scarily repeat itself over and over again.

[Loves_Shizuka]

So now we give up on Gracie because she isn't dominating like some people think she should? Her best years are after Sochi simple as that. The same goes for Osmond, Tuk and Adelina.

LOL, that's my point! It amuses me that last year so many people heralded Gracie as the immediate saviour of US ladies, and the second she falters, they're onto her. Personally I think she and Ashley are going to have a great worlds; I seem to be far more optimistic than a lot of people here.

[IceAlisa]

I am pleased with Gold's humility and candor post 4CC--she said she hopes to finish in the top 10 but mostly wants to have a great experience and that she is honored to share the ice with the likes of Asada. That's a nice contrast to the "Girl On Fire" image created by the media and likely her own PR team.

[Mayra]

I am pleased with Gold's humility and candor post 4CC--she said she hopes to finish in the top 10 but mostly wants to have a great experience and that she is honored to share the ice with the likes of Asada. That's a nice contrast to the "Girl On Fire" image created by the media and likely her own PR team.

I think it's the image a few people have created in response to the "over hyping." *Some* want to see this 17 year old as something she isn't in order to justify their own backlash. Very similar to early Cohen and even Wagner IMO. It is a big no no to want to win. Ambition isn't a good thing as far as image goes. You have to bow and scrape to the top finisher and you must always want to skate your best but never actually say you want to win. Your music must be humble in nature(whatever that entails) and above all wait your turn.

Zzzzzz

[IceAlisa]

I have actually never heard Gracie say that she wanted to win. There is nothing wrong with that IMO even if she did. What turned off was her reaction to her loss to Wagner. It's one thing to want to win--they all do--but it's another to act entitled. That was my perception of her behavior after the free at Nats. I am not saying it's a fact, just the sum of glimpses here and there, the way it looked to me. Plus her exhibition choice? Girl is clearly not yet on fire. Glad she has a more realistic view now.

[AndyWarhol]

I think it's the image a few people have created in response to the "over hyping." *Some* want to see this 17 year old as something she isn't in order to justify their own backlash. Very similar to early Cohen and even Wagner IMO. It is a big no no to want to win. Ambition isn't a good thing as far as image goes. You have to bow and scrape to the top finisher and you must always want to skate your best but never actually say you want to win. Your music must be humble in nature(whatever that entails) and above all wait your turn.

Zzzzzz

"im just happy that I tried my best, and it has really motivated me for practice"