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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    That's not much though is it? There's so much hatred towards him, but I can see how he could have felt so wronged that he couldn't stop himself. That doesn't excuse him (if it was him), but I do hope the investigation doesn't stop with his death.

    I hope the investigation into his claims happens regardless of the outcome of what is happening now. I don't think anything can justify what is happening now, but I do think that his original claims could have merit, and I hope they're not swept under the rug. I hope the police that did the previous shootings are also fully investigated and reprimanded. Seems a lot of mistakes have been made I'm surprised this isn't getting more international news coverage.
    You almost sound like you are either justifying or denying his crimes. Many people are wronged in many ways. They don't go around shooting people. The reason he is being hated is he killed some innocent people (like the daughter & her fiance' of the man he had a grudge against). If he had not turned into this monster, he would have received a lot of sympathy for his suffering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    I hope the investigation into his claims happens regardless of the outcome of what is happening now. I don't think anything can justify what is happening now, but I do think that his original claims could have merit, and I hope they're not swept under the rug. I hope the police that did the previous shootings are also fully investigated and reprimanded.
    I agree, though I hardly think it will be a fair investigation. They will likely say there was merit for his firing, and the officer who he reported police brutality against did nothing wrong.

    Still, I don't see how the LAPD can justify firing Dorner for making false claims, but allow those who riddled the car of the woman and her daughter delivering newspapers to remain on the job. Those cops should have been fired immediately, not simply reprimanded (if they ever were. All we've heard is that is was a grave mistake ).

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    You almost sound like you are either justifying or denying his crimes. Many people are wronged in many ways. They don't go around shooting people. The reason he is being hated is he killed some innocent people (like the daughter & her fiance' of the man he had a grudge against). If he had not turned into this monster, he would have received a lot of sympathy for his suffering.
    He would have. But now his name will forever be thought of as "crazy cop killer" rather than "sympathetic dude who was unjustly fired."

    The truly disturbing part is that he didn't realize THAT in the three years he stewed on this and planned the rampage.

    If you feel so wronged that you can't stop yourself, you should get professional help. He is denied any sympathy the minute he decided to take lives in the name of his so-called "justice." Because killing those who fired you (let alone people who had nothing to do with it) is soooo equal punishment.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    If he had not turned into this monster, he would have received a lot of sympathy for his suffering.
    If he hadn't started on his rampage, who would have known he was fired for being a whistle-blower? Seems like he would have been completely silenced and marginalized.
    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    I don't see how the LAPD can justify firing Dorner for making false claims, but allow those who riddled the car of the woman and her daughter delivering newspapers to remain on the job. Those cops should have been fired immediately, not simply reprimanded (if they ever were. All we've heard is that is was a grave mistake ).
    You have cops committing serious felonies, and then given a two-month paid suspension, desk-leave, or some other slap on the wrist. But someone who makes a claim against another cop is dismissed.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    Still, I don't see how the LAPD can justify firing Dorner for making false claims, but allow those who riddled the car of the woman and her daughter delivering newspapers to remain on the job. Those cops should have been fired immediately, not simply reprimanded (if they ever were. All we've heard is that is was a grave mistake ).
    This. I'm not only concerned that the the women were carelessly shot by the police, but that there is very little mention of it anywhere.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    If he hadn't started on his rampage, who would have known he was fired for being a whistle-blower? Seems like he would have been completely silenced and marginalized.
    Even though there may be some truth in it, you can't use this as an excuse for what he did (murders) or a solution to the problem.

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    No one is excusing his actions. I just think it's unrealistic to say if only Dorner had publicized his case differently, he would have gained public sympathy. I think there was exactly zero chance of his case ever being publicly heard, much less supported.

    I hope there is justice for the two women murdered, and for the victims brutalized by the police which Dorner witnessed, but I doubt it.

  8. #48

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    The two women shot by Torrence police by mistake are alive and recovering.
    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...191200561.html

    And of the witnesses who testified in the case against his training partner, non actually saw her kick the alleged victim.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...orner-training
    “Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none.” William Shakespeare

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    The two women shot by Torrence police by mistake are alive and recovering.
    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...191200561.html

    And of the witnesses who testified in the case against his training partner, non actually saw her kick the alleged victim.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...orner-training
    The father of the man who was allegedly kicked said his son told him about being kicked when he was released (the son had red marks on the side of his face). The father's description of what the son told him matches exactly what Dorner said he witnessed. Also, one of the witnesses who testified for the police at the hearing was caught in a lie. He claimed that he told Dorner to straighten his tie, but photos from the day showed Dorner wasn't wearing one. Despite that, the hearing officers held that Dorner and the father were not credible, but the other witnesses were. When Dorner appealed his firing to the court system, the judge there admitted that he could not tell if the victim was kicked, but the judge could not substitute his own findings; he had to accept the findings that the hearing officers made.

    A couple of people I know with very good contacts inside the LAPD say the inside scoop is that everyone knows Dorner got screwed and the DVD of the hearing is pretty damning. Supposedly the DVD was among the things sent to Anderson Cooper.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I hope there is justice for the two women murdered, and for the victims brutalized by the police which Dorner witnessed, but I doubt it.
    Which murdered women? I only have heard of one murdered woman in relation to the Dorner case -- Ms. Quan.
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  11. #51

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    Here is an op-ed from CNN. Whether Dorner was wronged or not (and very likely he was) while working for LAPD, he is not the one that deserves sympathy at this time. He had other alternatives. He was too full of hatred to realize that. The families of the victims need the sympathy at this time.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/13/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c2

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Here is an op-ed from CNN. Whether Dorner was wronged or not (and very likely he was) while working for LAPD, he is not the one that deserves sympathy at this time. He had other alternatives. He was too full of hatred to realize that. The families of the victims need the sympathy at this time.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/13/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c2
    It's interesting to read that from Van Jones.

    Unfortunately, I disagree with his fundamental premise. To ask questions about Dorner's history with the LAPD does not mean I am being unsympathetic to Dorner's victims or supporting Dorner's conduct. Those issues are not mutually exclusive. The LAPD has a checkered past, and the consent decree with the Department of Justice was supposed to fix a lot of things. But if there is still a thin blue line that protects its own and punishes whistleblowers, we still have a problem.

    Moreover, this past week opened a lot of eyes to aspects of the LAPD that I don't think people had realized. In the post-9/11 world, local police departments have become increasingly militarized. Seeing a bunch of cops with semi-automatic rifles scared a lot of people, and the shooting of the women delivering newspapers raised even more red flags about police accountability. If you look at the pictures of Dorner's gray pickup truck, the racks on top of the cab should have been enough to tell the police that the bright blue pickup the women were driving was not the right truck. And then to see how many bullets were fired at the back of the truck (there are at least two dozen bullet holes visible in the photo), it raises questions about whether the police were out of control.

    And there are questions about how the police handled the situation at the cabin. The police have said they did not intentionally burn the cabin. However, early in the stand-off, radio picked up someone saying "burn that goddamn house down." And when the tear gas was deployed, the radio reported that they had deployed "burners." The gas used apparently was pyrotechnic tear gas, which is flammable.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless View Post
    It's interesting to read that from Van Jones.
    Yes, very interesting indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless View Post
    Unfortunately, I disagree with his fundamental premise. To ask questions about Dorner's history with the LAPD does not mean I am being unsympathetic to Dorner's victims or supporting Dorner's conduct. Those issues are not mutually exclusive.
    Exactly. I had actually replied to the CNN piece earlier, saying pretty much the same thing.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Here is an op-ed from CNN. Whether Dorner was wronged or not (and very likely he was) while working for LAPD, he is not the one that deserves sympathy at this time. He had other alternatives. He was too full of hatred to realize that. The families of the victims need the sympathy at this time.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/13/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c2
    He did deserve sympathy, before he went off on his rampage. That's the thing that gets me - he could have used what happened to him and publicly shed light on the dirty dealings in the LAPD. He could have changed things for the better. But instead, he makes himself part of the problem. Or worse, because the focus is/will be on Dorner's mass killing spree INSTEAD of the LAPD corruption. At least comparatively.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    That's the thing that gets me - he could have used what happened to him and publicly shed light on the dirty dealings in the LAPD.
    How? Gone to the media? You really think the media is going to cover a terminated employee's criticism of their former employer? Really? And what do you think the response of the police department would be? "He's a disgruntled employee--we looked into the issue and found no merit behind it."

    I really think people are being exceptionally naive if they think Dorner had many options for publicizing his case and being able to bring about policy changes on his own. I also think people are underestimating how much people don't really care about police brutality in most instances. Unless it happens on videotape to a celebrity, there isn't going to be a big public outcry about it. That's sorta the problem--public indifference.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    How? Gone to the media? You really think the media is going to cover a terminated employee's criticism of their former employer? Really? And what do you think the response of the police department would be? "He's a disgruntled employee--we looked into the issue and found no merit behind it."

    I really think people are being exceptionally naive if they think Dorner had many options for publicizing his case and being able to bring about policy changes on his own.
    I haven't read much about what Dorner had done prior to his fatal shooting spree to try to publicize or otherwise bring attention to his case and the more general issue of police brutality. Was he just brooding and building up resentment and rage the past tour years or was he encountering repeated failures to get attention? If so, what were his unsuccessful attempts? From whom did he try to obtain help?
    I also think people are underestimating how much people don't really care about police brutality in most instances. Unless it happens on videotape to a celebrity, there isn't going to be a big public outcry about it. That's sorta the problem--public indifference.
    It doesn't need to be a celebrity or captured on videotape, unless you are talking about an outcry and attention at the national level. Locally there was much attention brought and changes made to police conduct towards minorities -- unfortunately because of two fatal shootings by the police.
    Last edited by skatingfan5; 02-15-2013 at 04:23 PM.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    How? Gone to the media? You really think the media is going to cover a terminated employee's criticism of their former employer? Really? And what do you think the response of the police department would be? "He's a disgruntled employee--we looked into the issue and found no merit behind it."
    Actually, the SoCal media regularly covers misdeads by the LAPD because they have such a history of corruption. It's possibly they may not have found Dorner's claims credible but I'm sure they would have looked into it just because piling on the LAPD is such a media tradition there and there would have been plenty of journalists eager to find another example of the LAPD engaging in misconduct.
    "Cupcakes are bullshit. And everyone knows it. A cupcake is just a muffin with clown puke topping." -Charlie Brooker

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    How? Gone to the media? You really think the media is going to cover a terminated employee's criticism of their former employer? Really? And what do you think the response of the police department would be? "He's a disgruntled employee--we looked into the issue and found no merit behind it."

    I really think people are being exceptionally naive if they think Dorner had many options for publicizing his case and being able to bring about policy changes on his own. I also think people are underestimating how much people don't really care about police brutality in most instances. Unless it happens on videotape to a celebrity, there isn't going to be a big public outcry about it. That's sorta the problem--public indifference.
    You are making it sound like Dorner had no choice but to murder people in order to get the problem fixed. This justifies murder, in a convoluted way (although I know that you as an individual would never condone murder). Dorner had options like seeking medical help when he was so full of hatred, and in a way mentally ill. I still believe he could have used some kind of media, or even writing about his experiences in LAPD. I don't buy that he had no other choice but to kill innocent people.

  20. #60

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    I think he was mentally ill. But the sad fact is, a lot of people who are mentally ill don't even realize they are... and therefore will not seek help. Or they can't afford the help they need. I think that this is a very sad case. I don't think that it is at all a black and white case of him being a cold-blooded killer...end of story. I think that's just part of the story.
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