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  1. #801

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  2. #802

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    Last edited by TAHbKA; 08-07-2013 at 04:25 PM.

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    this maybe belongs in PI and not here, but I'm really wondering about the comparisons to Nazi Germany. From what I am reading, and admittedly it is not extensive, the situation in Russia for LGBT people sounds like the United States in the 50s and 60s. I'm not seeing the validity of the comparison with Nazi Germany and feel like it is inflaming discussion rather than advancing it. Tell me why I'm wrong.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    From Ad Age this week - the current issue does not have all articles online yet, so I will quote some parts of this article without a link. The full text of the article will probably be on their website by next week:

    NBC, Olympic sponsors stick to 'spirit' of games in face of outcry

    The 2014 Winter Olympics and its sponsors are getting caught in the crossfire as human-rights activists respond to Russia's hardline stance against the gay community.

    ...Those hoping the Olympics proceed as normal include NBC, along with Coca-Cola, AT&T and General Motors.

    In a statement, NBCUniversal said it "strongly supports equal rights and the fair treatment for all people. The spirit of the Olympic Games is about unifying people and countries through the celebration of sport and it is our hope that spirit will prevail."

    ...Coca-Cola... said in a statement to Ad Age that while it does "not condone intolerance of any kind," it "does not take positions on political matters unrelated to our business."
    Ad Age, August 5, 2013, p. 1
    And so, dear Lord, it is with deep sadness that we turn over to you this young woman, whose dream to ride on a giant swan resulted in her death. Maybe it is your way of telling us... to buy American.

  5. #805

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    this maybe belongs in PI and not here, but I'm really wondering about the comparisons to Nazi Germany. From what I am reading, and admittedly it is not extensive, the situation in Russia for LGBT people sounds like the United States in the 50s and 60s. I'm not seeing the validity of the comparison with Nazi Germany and feel like it is inflaming discussion rather than advancing it. Tell me why I'm wrong.
    I'm not sure where I stand on the comparisons to Nazi Germany but the difference in Russia now to say the UK (or the US) in the 50s and 60s, is that in the 50s and 60s it was illegal to be gay and there were no such things as gay rights, but there had never been rights before that. The thing that is so abhorrent about Russia at the moment, is that the gay rights movement was actually getting somewhere gay rights were coming into being and progress being made, but now it has been stopped dead in it's tracks with new laws that effectively take away rights that were previously held.

  6. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    this maybe belongs in PI and not here, but I'm really wondering about the comparisons to Nazi Germany. From what I am reading, and admittedly it is not extensive, the situation in Russia for LGBT people sounds like the United States in the 50s and 60s. I'm not seeing the validity of the comparison with Nazi Germany and feel like it is inflaming discussion rather than advancing it. Tell me why I'm wrong.
    I don't think you are wrong, I don't think we can compare what is happening in Russia to Nazi Germany. At least, not yet. And hopefully it will never get that bad. However, we also cannot truly compare what is happening to the US in the 50s and 60s, for one reason: While the LGBT community was certainly treated horribly, there were no official laws passed to persecute said community. There were state legislated sodomy laws, however they were not specific to the LGBT community. Now, I do realize that in practice it would effect gay men more than any other community. But, the laws were not specific to the gay community.

    And, as an aside, we still see violence toward the LGBT community in the US, but the perpetrators are dealt with.

    I have mixed feelings with regard to boycotting. As Johnny said, so many athletes and their families have sacrificed time and finances, to rob them of their Olympic experience would be unfair. Many of these athletes are gay, they would be robbed of their Olympic experience as well, it would (in a way) punish them for being gay. On the other hand, I worry that athletes who are gay and/or who are supportive of LGBT will be in danger. Therefore, as much as a rainbow "demonstration" would be satisfying, could it put athletes at risk of 1. being disqualified or 2. imprisoned. I feel that a message must be sent to Russia that human rights violations will not be tolerated. Moving the Olympics would be a great way to do that, however, I doubt that would or could happen. I am not sure that making the point on Russian soil would be safe. However, the news organizations covering the Olympics can certainly raise the issue and the world can let Russia know that this is NOT acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I'm not sure where I stand on the comparisons to Nazi Germany but the difference in Russia now to say the UK (or the US) in the 50s and 60s, is that in the 50s and 60s it was illegal to be gay and there were no such things as gay rights, but there had never been rights before that. The thing that is so abhorrent about Russia at the moment, is that the gay rights movement was actually getting somewhere gay rights were coming into being and progress being made, but now it has been stopped dead in it's tracks with new laws that effectively take away rights that were previously held.
    Yes, those are good points.

    Being optimistic, I might say those points makes it more likely this is a passing political phase of scapegoating LGBT people and that actions to highlight it really may make a difference.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I don't think you are wrong, I don't think we can compare what is happening in Russia to Nazi Germany. At least, not yet. And hopefully it will never get that bad. However, we also cannot truly compare what is happening to the US in the 50s and 60s, for one reason: While the LGBT community was certainly treated horribly, there were no official laws passed to persecute said community.
    This isn't correct. Homosexuality was illegal. Gays were arrested for things like for instance cruising (sorry couldn't resist ). I'm not old enough to have experienced the 50s but what I've read gays who were not deeply in the closet faced harassment and arrest by the authorities. The medical establishment deemed homosexuality a mental illness. And as far as political movements using anti-gay attitudes for their own agendas? That's still happening in the U.S.

    The law recently passed in Russia is alarming but I don't think we can conclude at this time that Russia is about to round up gays and put them in death camps.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    However, the news organizations covering the Olympics can certainly raise the issue and the world can let Russia know that this is NOT acceptable.
    You mean the western world? It is certainly acceptable for eastern world.

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    Articles:

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/gre...d&CMP=SOCxx2I2

    Russian journalists face charges over 'negative' Winter Olympics stories

    http://www.athleteally.org/news/athl...ochi-olympics/

    Athlete Ally Ambassadors Speak Out on Russia's Ant-LGBT Legislation ahead of 2014 Sochi Olympics

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

    Aug 7, 10:06 AM EDT

    IN REBUKE, OBAMA CANCELS MOSCOW SUMMIT WITH PUTIN
    BY JULIE PACE
    AP WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT

    LOS ANGELES (AP) -- In a rare diplomatic rebuke, President Barack Obama on Wednesday canceled his Moscow summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

    The decision reflected both U.S. anger over Russia's harboring of National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden and growing frustration within the Obama administration over what it sees as Moscow's stubbornness on other key issues, including missile defense and human rights.

  11. #811
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    It is laughable that people would think the IOC could change the olympic venue in 6 months even if they wanted to. It takes years to set up the infrastructure for an olympic event to say nothing of the cost spent by the host. Just consider how many sports are held, the phyisical requirements for each sport, the logistical requirements and so forth. It's not like moving a single event such as figure skating to a new venue. I get that people are just expressing their frustration and concerns, but really.
    Adelina Sotnikova defeated the curse of Esta She is indeed the Greatest Of All Time!

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    I don't buy that Obama's cancelling the summit with Putin has anything to do with the anti-gay law. I think its just convenient for the administration's domestic politics to add that in as an afterthought.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    It is laughable that people would think the IOC could change the olympic venue in 6 months even if they wanted to. It takes years to set up the infrastructure for an olympic event to say nothing of the cost spent by the host. Just consider how many sports are held, the phyisical requirements for each sport, the logistical requirements and so forth. It's not like moving a single event such as figure skating to a new venue. I get that people are just expressing their frustration and concerns, but really.
    Not to mention that with the heightened scrutiny on human rights, there's probably not anywhere it could be held...
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    Oh, No Obama is talking about human rights now , I hope he will stop the drone attack in Pakistan that is killing innocent children, i guess he doesn't consider them human to think about their rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    Oh, No Obama is talking about human rights now , I hope he will stop the drone attack in Pakistan that is killing innocent children, i guess he doesn't consider them human to think about their rights.
    Obama's actions do not negate human rights violations by other countries. You can play this game til the cows come home but the anti-gay law in Russia won't suddenly become okay.

    I have to say this line of well the US violates human rights (yes it does) so no one should say anything about human rights anywhere else is really pathetic.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    Cancelling the Olympics is a more likely option than them being moved to "Lillyhammer" (sic) or "Utah or wherever". You'd think that people like George Takei or Stephen Fry would have a clue.....
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    Domshabfan, do you think Russians are the only people who resent being told what to do by outsiders?
    Apparently, he does:

    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    Oh, No Obama is talking about human rights now , I hope he will stop the drone attack in Pakistan that is killing innocent children, i guess he doesn't consider them human to think about their rights.

  18. #818

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Cancelling the Olympics is a more likely option than them being moved to "Lillyhammer" (sic) or "Utah or wherever". You'd think that people like George Takei or Stephen Fry would have a clue.....
    Would you? They're very popular and make funny comments but they seem pretty clueless about many things.

    I read a really interesting article the other day (I forget where, it was a link in someone's twitter feed and can't find the tweet) that was basically calling out the bourgeois gays who don't actually bother to look into any issue but will happily boycot Russian vodka or demand that we boycot the winter Olympics and then pat themselves on teh back for being oh-so-helpful-and-political.

    I think the main group of people who matter in this scenario is the LGBT community in Russia suffering under these laws right now - what do they want to happen? So far all i've heard from LGBT groups in Russia is that the games should take place as planned and a spotlight shone on the issues during the games. Boycotting the games would achieve nothing and certiainly not help the situation for them.

  19. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    this maybe belongs in PI and not here, but I'm really wondering about the comparisons to Nazi Germany. From what I am reading, and admittedly it is not extensive, the situation in Russia for LGBT people sounds like the United States in the 50s and 60s. I'm not seeing the validity of the comparison with Nazi Germany and feel like it is inflaming discussion rather than advancing it. Tell me why I'm wrong.
    It's a narrow comparison. No-one thinks, or at least I don't, that Russian gays are soon to be packed off to concentration camps wearing pink stars.

    The comparison is valid in one sense: Hitler used the games to highlight Nazi "accomplishments" and ideology. Putin is planning the same for Sochi -- and generally every nation who wants the Olys does so partially as a nationalist platform, that's OK. But in both cases you have leaders with flagrant human rights violations putting on a show about the wonders of their country, and that being accepted at face value by other nations and the media is NOT good.

    In other words, the context is different but the intent of both leaders for the Olys is the same, and that storyline needs to be disrupted over and over again so that the Russian leadership pays a price for its action.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

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    I still don't see why the comparison with Nazi Germany. Wouldn't a better comparison be with the Olympics in Beijing?

    The U.S. was rather lucky on this score, I think. SLC came while the world was still sympathetic with the US following the 911 attacks. Imagine if SLC had been in 2004 or 2006 rather than 2002.

    I don't think that the Sochi Olys should be allowed to pass in silence over the anti-gay climate in Russia, but I don't think it merits comparisons with Nazi Germany.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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