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  1. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Obviously the law has its cultural base, like US gun laws. Is US gun law ignorant?
    Yes.

    But you are missing the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Would you mind if some people who disagree with the laws in your country deliberately break the law? In some countries, men and women are forbidden to be in close proximity including holding hands. Personally I think the law is ridiculous in this era and having being brought up in a more open society. Should we enter the country to defy the law by holding hands and wearing skimpy clothes? Should we be pitied if we are thrown into jail in that country? Should our countries send troops into these countries to save us? I am not sure whether thumping our noses against the laws we disagree in other countries serves to heighten our own sense righteousness better or for the benefit of those who are most affected by the law. For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. Before we act, it may be prudent to determine the likely reaction.
    Exactly! To me, this law has been created a little strangely. This law might be the result of counter act?
    Last edited by Eyre; 08-01-2013 at 06:01 AM.

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    I'm happy the Civil Rights Movement in the United States didn't follow those rationalizations. Although I am sure it could have done more had it not been for people being too worried about going "too far."

    I'm sure the LGBTQ population in Russia had so much political power before these laws were in place. I'm sure the pushback was caused by gay and lesbian couples doing things that heterosexual couples were doing. Of course, when "gays" do it, they're shoving it in people's faces or conducting "aggressive LGBT action"...or something. As long as they're not getting killed, then we should just respect the laws, right?
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  4. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil-Galad View Post
    No, what is really offensive that laws similar to early Nazi laws are still being made - especially in a modern country like Russia where most people can read, have access to education, books and various forms of information.

    But thanks for explanation why so few people boycotted the 1936-games or spoke out against them or staged protests - they were probably respecting Germany's long-standing cutural tradition of Antisemitism.
    comparing it to Nazism is too much, its terrible but they arent gassed and put into concentration camps
    what this is a mere western issue, outside europe and NA , many countries have draconian and event anti gay attitudes
    change should come from within not some foreign people who think what is right for another country

    we can find many of these in rural America too, if you read Russian history you will learn Russians are illiberal they view liberalism as a threat and foreign made. more than 80% of Russians still oppose public exposure for the third sex, pass a law to legalize gay marriage and you will see close to a hundred million marching to the streets. outside Moscow, St.Petersburg people are still very conservative, many in europe would have culture shock, lol . reminds me there is a popular reality tv now in Russia of people baiting to expose gays and pedophiles and exposing them on TV, if that happened in the US or Europe, I dont know how they would have reacted

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    Quote Originally Posted by love_skate2011 View Post
    reminds me there is a popular reality tv now in Russia of people baiting to expose gays and pedophiles and exposing them on TV, if that happened in the US or Europe, I dont know how they would have reacted
    Yes, let's lump the gays and pedophiles together.

    But, anyway, the Russian TV show you mention sounds like Chris Hansen's "To Catch a Predator" on NBC, which was actually rather popular in the US. But he only went after actual criminals, i.e., the pedophiles.
    Creating drama!

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffisjeff View Post
    Yes, let's lump the gays and pedophiles together.

    But, anyway, the Russian TV show you mention sounds like Chris Hansen's "To Catch a Predator" on NBC, which was actually rather popular in the US. But he only went after actual criminals, i.e., the pedophiles.
    I didnt, it was the TV show that exposed it.
    btw there is an old saying in Russia, I you have only been to Moscow, St. Petersburg you haven't seen Russia at all.

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    Was the show like this?

    WARNING NSFW and GRAPHIC
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthi...-publicly-humi

    These neo-Nazis also lump gays and pedophiles together. These attitudes are perpetuated by and inspired the anti-gay laws that Russia just passed. The law just adds more legitimacy to these violent actions (even if they are technically illegal) because like the law, these actions are specifically targeting people based solely on their sexual orientation.

    We keep talking about respecting other people's culture and it's true to an extent. However, it's not as if the IOC doesn't have a human rights charter that evolves with the way human rights narratives have evolved in Western Culture. Call it a Western bias if you will, but the modern Olympic games are a Western construct as is the idea of evolving human rights.

    Not to compare this to the Nazis at all because I won't go as far as to say Russia will do to gays what the Nazis did to the Jews, gays, Roma, and other minorities...but Germany didn't put their targeted groups into gas chambers until after the Olympics as well. They did put some of those groups in segregationist camps though, which Russia has NOT done. Before the 1936 Olympics, many Western countries said the high discrimination and relocation orders should not be a reason to relocate the games because politics should stay out of the Olympics. I'm sure if there were laws that targeted more privileged groups, there would not be any hesitation about relocation and boycotting. But then, it's such a money-making endeavor for many corporations...so maybe they would still turn a blind eye.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  8. #628

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Germany didn't put their targeted groups into gas chambers until after the Olympics as well. They did put some of those groups in segregationist camps though, which Russia has NOT done. Before the 1936 Olympics, many Western countries said the high discrimination and relocation orders should not be a reason to relocate the games because politics should stay out of the Olympics.
    There was discrimination going on in 1936 that directly affected athletes. Germany and several other countries also had qualification "standards" for the 1936 Olympics that made it very difficult for Jewish athletes to participate. E.g. Some sports federations in Germany banned Jews from belonging to local sport clubs, and athletes who did not belong to a local club were not eligible to compete at the national championships and thus could not qualify for the Olympics. But that sport-related reason - along with everything else - was not enough for the other countries to boycott the Games.
    Last edited by overedge; 08-01-2013 at 07:38 AM.
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  9. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Was the show like this?

    Not to compare this to the Nazis at all because I won't go as far as to say Russia will do to gays what the Nazis did to the Jews, gays, Roma, and other minorities...but Germany didn't put their targeted groups into gas chambers until after the Olympics as well. They did put some of those groups in segregationist camps though, which Russia has NOT done. Before the 1936 Olympics, many Western countries said the high discrimination and relocation orders should not be a reason to relocate the games because politics should stay out of the Olympics. I'm sure if there were laws that targeted more privileged groups, there would not be any hesitation about relocation and boycotting. But then, it's such a money-making endeavor for many corporations...so maybe they would still turn a blind eye.
    some graphics are affiliated to culture shock , I would bet this doesn't happen in the in the US or EU:
    note Russia has the second highest undocumented immigrants after the USA

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...mmigrants.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Yes, it would be interesting if anyone on FSU steeped in Russian history, law and culture, can give their viewpoints as to how and why the law was instituted in the first place. And what is the reaction of the Russian people towards this law? And if the majority disagree, how can they best communicate to their leaders to change it? Do the majority of Russians have a say in running the country?
    I too would be interested to know why this law was necessary to begin with because the way I see it, the Russian gays belong to the same culture as the rest of the Russian population, they don't come from another galaxy. And if we were to refer to high culture, quite a few Russian writers and musicians were gay. So what cultural needs does this new piece of legislation fulfill? I'd also like to know if the Russian gays feel safe and comfortable in their own country now or if they fear persecution.

  11. #631

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    If the Russian people think Pedophiles and Gay people are the same....well, lots of work to be done there. Perhaps the law is also anti-science? OR anti-art?

    Back to the Games. I hope gay athletes, coaches, judges, officials are chosen to go to the Olympics, and aren't kept home in their native countries due to fear. I hope all that go will be safe, and be welcome. I hope the gay athletes will be treated fairly in their competition- not disqualified (in timed events) or scored low because they are gay. (in subjective events)

    I hope for non violence.

    However, if a large number of athletes choose to show solidarity with their team mates by wearing rainbow scarves or hats in the Closing Ceremony- I hope that that could occur peacefully.

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    The following is my personal opinion only. I hope Russia is so overwhelmingly globally embarrassed by this. I know if I was a Russian I would be so very ashamed of my country for taking such huge steps backwards. In saying that I totally disagree with a boycott as the athletes who have trained their whole life for this event may miss out due to politics. In 50 years time nobody remembers about the boycott, they just remember who won the medals. For those on this thread who are trying to defend this absolutely disgraceful law, shame on you.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  13. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzisk8tr View Post
    The following is my personal opinion only. I hope Russia is so overwhelmingly globally embarrassed by this. I know if I was a Russian I would be so very ashamed of my country for taking such huge steps backwards. In saying that I totally disagree with a boycott as the athletes who have trained their whole life for this event may miss out due to politics. In 50 years time nobody remembers about the boycott, they just remember who won the medals. For those on this thread who are trying to defend this absolutely disgraceful law, shame on you.
    Really? I recall the 1980 boycott, but not who won medals. I recall the 1984 boycott, but the only medal winner I remember is Retton.

    But the boycott didn't resolve anything and I'm not for one in 2014.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Yes, it would be interesting if anyone on FSU steeped in Russian history, law and culture, can give their viewpoints as to how and why the law was instituted in the first place. And what is the reaction of the Russian people towards this law? And if the majority disagree, how can they best communicate to their leaders to change it? Do the majority of Russians have a say in running the country?
    I'm not steeped in Russian history or culture, but I found this statistic here (and on many other sites): http://en.gazeta.ru/news/2012/04/19/a_4556649.shtml
    WCIOM sociology service conducted a poll showing that vast majority of Russian support anti-gay propaganda laws.

    Approximately 86% of Russians support the ban on homosexual propaganda.
    I find it ironic that one of Russia's greatest and most loved composers (Tchaikovsky) was well-known to be gay. Also--Russians greatly value their ballet, and in N. America, ballet guys are often perceived as gay.

    I'm also a bit puzzled why many people celebrate the Pope's recent comments as "liberal" (for the Catholic church) and simultaneously condemn Russia's law. To me, they both say the same thing--being gay is not wrong; however, homosexual actions (for example, marriage, sex) are wrong.
    Last edited by altai_rose; 08-01-2013 at 01:02 PM.

  15. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Really? I recall the 1980 boycott, but not who won medals. I recall the 1984 boycott, but the only medal winner I remember is Retton.

    But the boycott didn't resolve anything and I'm not for one in 2014.
    Yes. And I remember to my friend, who was unable to attend the Oly Games.

    I hope the Russians will soon change the law.

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    Gays may be prosecuted at Olympics

    Last edited by Iceman; 08-01-2013 at 12:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I too would be interested to know why this law was necessary to begin with because the way I see it, the Russian gays belong to the same culture as the rest of the Russian population, they don't come from another galaxy. And if we were to refer to high culture, quite a few Russian writers and musicians were gay. So what cultural needs does this new piece of legislation fulfill? I'd also like to know if the Russian gays feel safe and comfortable in their own country now or if they fear persecution.
    VarBar, I tried to search for journal articles to answer our queries, and found THIS journal article written by the late Russian sexologist Igor Kon - "Homophobia as a litmus test of Russian Democracy", Sociological Research, vol. 48, no. 2, March–April 2009, pp. 43–64, interesting and illuminating. Fascinating that his article was prophetic as it was written in 2009 and he died in 2011 so he did not live to the see the adoption of the current discriminatory law.

    An analysis by Russia’s leading researcher on sexuality of how attitudes toward homosexuality have changed over time, and what this may tell us about the state of politics and democratic values in contemporary Russia - "In this article, I do not touch upon general questions concerning homosexuality and the factors leading to its normalization, which I have dealt with in detail in other works, I do want to discuss: (a) why this problem has become so timely and relevant in today’s Russia; (b) how it is refracted in the mirror of mass surveys; and (c) how it influences the state of the mass consciousness and our country’s international image"
    Quote Originally Posted by altai rose
    I'm not steeped in Russian history or culture, but I found this statistic here (and on many other sites): http://en.gazeta.ru/news/2012/04/19/a_4556649.shtml
    Thanks altai rose. It is interesting that 'they have not seen it but still support the ban'.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

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    HRC slams Sochi assurances following new statement out of Russia
    http://www.metroweekly.com/news/last...statement.html
    “Within the past two days, two Russian officials have gone out of their way to contradict the IOC in no uncertain terms. The opinion of the Russian government is now perfectly clear: If you’re gay and you come to Russia for the Olympics, you may be imprisoned and deported.”
    Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Would you mind if some people who disagree with the laws in your country deliberately break the law? In some countries, men and women are forbidden to be in close proximity including holding hands. Personally I think the law is ridiculous in this era and having being brought up in a more open society. Should we enter the country to defy the law by holding hands and wearing skimpy clothes?
    In this particular case - the new law - on the one hand you don't want to break the laws of a country that hosts you and on the other you can't act like everything's alright. It's a delicate matter and I can't claim I have the right answer. I personally am not in favour of a boycott at this point though, I don't think it would do anyone any good.

    VarBar, I tried to search for journal articles to answer our queries, and found THIS journal article written by the late Russian sexologist Igor Kon - "Homophobia as a litmus test of Russian Democracy", Sociological Research, vol. 48, no. 2, March–April 2009, pp. 43–64, interesting and illuminating. Fascinating that his article was prophetic as it was written in 2009 and he died in 2011 so he did not live to the see the adoption of the current discriminatory law.
    Thank you, spiky.

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    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...medium=twitter

    Baird denounces Russia’s ‘hateful’ anti-gay law, says Canada has been pushing back
    MIKE BLANCHFIELD
    OTTAWA — The Canadian Press
    Published Thursday, Aug. 01 2013, 3:11 PM EDT
    Last updated Thursday, Aug. 01 2013, 3:14 PM EDT

    Excerpt:

    Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird denounced Russia’s controversial new anti-gay law as hateful Thursday, saying it could incite violence.

    In an exclusive interview with The Canadian Press, Baird described how Canada has worked behind the scenes to persuade Russia not to follow through with the law.

    Baird outlined the details of eight meetings, dating back to January, during which Canadian officials pushed the issue with the Russians, before and after President Vladimir Putin signed the controversial bill into law in June.

    Baird said he is deeply concerned about Thursday’s comments by Russia’s sports minister that the new law will be enforced during the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi.

    “As concerned as we are about the Olympics, that’s nothing. That’s two, three, four weeks for the athletes and participants and the visitors,” Baird said in a telephone interview from Colombia.

    “This mean-spirited and hateful law will affect all Russians 365 days of the year, every year. It is an incitement to intolerance, which breeds hate. And intolerance and hate breed violence.”

    Baird said he is aware of hate crimes against gays in Russia and of Internet luring and violence in recent days and weeks.

    The minister said Canada will work with like-minded countries such as the United States and the United Kingdom to pressure the Russian government to change the law ahead of the Olympics.
    EDIT:

    http://americablog.com/2013/08/us-se...-athletes.html

    US Senator blasts “outrageous” Russian threat against gay Olympic athletes
    8/1/2013 4:08pm by John Aravosis

    Excerpt:

    United States Senator Jeff Merkley (D-OR) called “outrageous” the news that Russia plans to arrest gay, and gay-friendly, Olympic athletes and visitors during the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia.

    Merkley was responding to an earlier report in the Russian state-owned media that the country’s Sports Minister, Vitaly Mutko, had said that Olympic athletes and guests who act in a pro-gay manner during the games will be arrested under Russia’s new draconian anti-gay “propaganda” law.

    In his tweet, which forwarded a copy of an earlier Buzzfeed story about the Russian Minister’s threat, Senator Merkley wrote:

    “Outrageous. Olympic discrimination against LGBT athletes and spectators is 100% unacceptable.”

    Merkley’s comments add fuel to an already volatile situation in which, by the hour, the safety of Olympic athletes and spectators is being increasingly questioned by human rights groups, politicians, and members of the Russian government itself. Russia has become increasingly dangerous for gay and trans people following the government ramping up its official pogrom against the minority.
    Last edited by dardar1126; 08-01-2013 at 10:13 PM.

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