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  1. #501

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Would the Russian police arrest every last athlete at the opening ceremonies? That would take the oomph out of their Olympic Games. It certainly would show support for GLBT communities worldwide, like Danes of all religions wearing the yellow Star of David.
    So it would be a "I came to this country but I don't intend to obey the laws I don't like?" Where does that end?

    I have no idea if they would arrest every last athlete at the opening ceremony. I don't agree with the law here, but Russia has the right to make their own laws. Every athlete could not only be arrested, but also disciplined by their own Olympics committee, which makes athletes sign an agreement stating they will obey the laws of the country etc. Athletes on sponsorship deals could also lose them. If someone isn't willing to obey the law, I would rather them boycott, but I don't think a boycott would make any difference to the law. If they choose to go and break the law, then they won't get my sympathy.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Don't worry Eyre. The Olympics will happen and Patrick Chan can still win his gold medal.
    Why is Patrick Chan mentioned? Just because Eyre is a fan of Patrick and she takes a different stand from others, it automatically means she wants the Olympics to go ahead just to allow Patrick to get the gold? By that token, do lala and misskarne both want Patrick to get the gold? I know this is a touchy subject, but please leave the posters' favourite skaters out of the discussion.

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    So it would be a "I came to this country but I don't intend to obey the laws I don't like?" Where does that end?
    It would be "I came to this country and am breaking a law in protest of a human rights violation" like a protest against Nazi discrimination or slavery or human trafficking, etc.

    I don't think it would happen, even among the athletes of the Winter Olympics countries, which skew Nordic and more socially liberal than the much wider range of countries in the Summer Olympics.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  4. #504

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    If they choose to go and break the law, then they won't get my sympathy.
    Yeah, say a female athlete wins a gold medal and kisses her partner, how dare she break the law. No sympathy.

  5. #505

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    It would be "I came to this country and am breaking a law in protest of a human rights violation" like a protest against Nazi discrimination or slavery or human trafficking, etc.
    It's a human right to be able to kiss in public? What is the human right being violated? I disagree with the law, but don't agree with people going to a country knowing they will deliberately break the law there.

    Many countries have laws against the public showing of affection; others also have laws against homosexuality. The “propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations” law is not saying people will be arrested for being gay. It's not illegal to be gay in Russia. Though it is in many other places, and public kissing can get you a jail term in several countries. When China was given the Olympics, it still had homosexuality on the official list of mental illnesses (it was only removed in 2001, even though homosexuality was legalised in 1997).

    People who plan to make their statements against this law by using the Olympics as their platform will be doing more harm than good, IMO. They won't change the law, they will overshadow others' sporting accomplishments, and they may jeopardise not only their own careers, but also their team. Athletes should go, be respectful of the laws (just like travellers to the ME who may need to wear head coverings or not show affection in public, or covering your shoulders in a church in Italy), or not go at all, IMO.

  6. #506

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Yeah, say a female athlete wins a gold medal and kisses her partner, how dare she break the law. No sympathy.
    Plenty of countries have laws where it means restraining from public affection. If you can't do that, you shouldn't go there.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Lala, can you explain your comment: "It seems the Cold War is not over yet .. Good luck with that, guys!"

    dots, the IOC's comments are remarkably callous.
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Basically lala is minimizing the very real issues this brings up by saying any sort of negative press is attributable to holdover animosity towards Russia from the Cold War. I mean I do think that does play a part in some way. NBC fluff pieces and whatnot are alway playing up the Soviet history and playing with old Cold War narratives. Just look at how they portrayed the Russian gymnastics team. That said, lala has chosen to ignore almost every point made regarding the anti-gay laws to the point where she's pretending they aren't a big deal.
    1. I hate the Russian law!!!!!
    2. I want to that every people in the world live in peace and freedom.
    3. I want to the sport and the Olympic spirit beats everything..
    4. But I can't believe every news, article, what you show me..the situation is a little bit histeric...We have to wait , without exaggeration and histeria to be seen how works the law. Maybe this was a geste for the orthodox church, but there will be no strict. (I don't believe the construction worker's story from Sochi.. )
    5. The US media use this situation against Russia and Putin politically. (You don't forget Putin could win clearly, the Russian wanted him..that was not cheating)
    6. The guests adapt to the laws of a country.
    7. The Americans act that they would be the responsible for world peace and for freedom, but they also have a lot of sins..( you don't say me that I hate the US, because that isn't true!!!! )
    Last edited by lala; 07-27-2013 at 07:27 PM.

  8. #508

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    I don't think any on this thread like the law, lala. What is the Russian reaction though? 400+ voted "yes" and none "no" so it would seem, politically, there isn't much chance of getting it changed any time soon. Is that true? Obviously the Russian LGBT community doesn't like it, but what about the general population? Does it have the majority support? Is it getting press in Russia, and is that positive or negative press?

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Yeah, say a female athlete wins a gold medal and kisses her partner, how dare she break the law. No sympathy.
    You should not deliberately do something that would offend the host country's custom. If same sex kissing in public is offensive there, I don't know why you shouldn't respect their wishes and restrain yourself a little and save it till when you are alone? How affection should be displayed in public varies greatly from culture to culture. It's like if you go to muslim countries, you obey their muslim laws and respect their wishes. Disregard that will only show that you are selfish and full of yourselves.
    Last edited by Eyre; 07-27-2013 at 08:19 AM.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    You should not deliberately do something that would offend the host country's custom. If same sex kissing in public is offensive there, I don't know why you shouldn't respect their wishes and restrain yourself a little and save it till when you are alone? How affection should be displayed in public varies greatly from culture to culture. It's like if you go to muslim countries, you obey their muslim laws and respect their wishes. Disregard that will only show that you are selfish and full of yourselves.
    Custom and culture are never self-justifying in and of themselves. Racism, sexism and ableism were all once considered "customs" in many countries around the world. Why don't you try replacing where you said things like "same sex kissing" in your post with something like "treating all races equally"? Would you still find wanting to see racial equality in public "selfish"?

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Cooper View Post
    This article is absolutely arrogant and completely disrespectful towards majority of the Russian people, who voted for this bill to pass.
    Author has no clue about multicultural Russia, he even behaves like dictator, by telling:” This must change” and he wrote 14 times Mr. Putin, which should be Russians. Note, the minute you change “Mr. Putin” to “Russians”, all claims become invalid.
    Author doesn’t understand fundamental things, which have value for Russians.
    When Russians see articles like this, they can’t take it serious at all, and in Caucuses region people could be very aggressive and high tempered, because they have very strong cultural roots and many of them don’t even know about gay existence.

    Proper education through local communities might give some positive results, but not foreign force during Olympics and aggressive propaganda. Let them come to this their own way.



    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I think the question is a legitimate one since there is the suggestion of supporting a boycott, as there were no boycotts in other countries with serious human rights violations that escalated after the Games were awarded. It's also legitimate to ask whether the boycott will accomplish more than it hurts, and whether it is an appropriate response, because even gay athletes aren't unanimous that it's the way to go.
    Perhaps it would be more effective if every athlete simultaneously ripped off his or her jacket at the opening ceremony during the Olympic oath to reveal a glittering rainbow shirt, so that Russia would have to arrest every athlete and coach who marched.

    Russians will take it as disrespectful and stupid act and it won’t change their mind even a bit. Logically and more likely it will produce more hate towards countries and athletes who ignore and breach the law, as well towards of LGBT people in Russia. If this is the purpose, then go ahead. I don’t see the logic at how this kind of forcing foreing action will change 99% of Russian people’s minds.

    As I said before if anyone wants some changes about this issue in Russia, then the best would be an education through local communities and media and lots of patient. At this very moment propaganda among children is a sensitive issue for many Russian families not only Caucuses people.
    LGBT children not alone in Russia, they get support though doctors and family.

    Some videos about Russian culture

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUEtDyv1PVg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL58rV0ojxU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VHFrjpvjgk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYvEhsX1Exg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3BSBd407g0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsbMTwY8R_Y

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHfIL9OFzG8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlu4h8I6uU8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ZtcS481W8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24WqvxWaJwU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXOBlK3Cz-U

  12. #512

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    This article is absolutely arrogant and completely disrespectful towards majority of the Russian people, who voted for this bill to pass.

    ...

    Proper education through local communities might give some positive results, but not foreign force during Olympics and aggressive propaganda. Let them come to this their own way.

    As I said before if anyone wants some changes about this issue in Russia, then the best would be an education through local communities and media and lots of patient. At this very moment propaganda among children is a sensitive issue for many Russian families not only Caucuses people.
    LGBT children not alone in Russia, they get support though doctors and family.
    So the only way to change people's bigoted and homophobic attitudes is through education, but education is only acceptable if it's not "propaganda" and if no child is ever exposed to it.

    Yup, that makes a lot of sense.

    As has been pointed out here, by myself and others, respect for other cultures does not mean every belief and norm of those cultures must be accepted and applauded. If people support repulsive legislation, they shouldn't be surprised when they are criticized for it. While we're at it, disrespect is a lot better than what LGBT folks in Russia are facing, so excuse me if I can't work up much sympathy.

  13. #513

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    As has been pointed out here, by myself and others, respect for other cultures does not mean every belief and norm of those cultures must be accepted and applauded.
    No one is saying anyone needs to accept and applaud the law, beliefs, or culture, from afar.

    What some, including me, are saying is that when you criticise another country's law and culture, don't expect them to like it - or it to make any positive difference. In fact, in this case, it will likely make negative difference. If you go there and don't obey the law, then you suffer the consequences of that, the same as if you break the law in any country. You don't have to like the law, but if you go there you *do* need to accept that it's their law.

    It's up to Russians to change this law, and I think those there and familiar with the way things work there, would have a much better way of how that could be done than you or I, or anyone else not there. No need to roll your eyes. There are plenty of ways to educate sensitively. I live in China, and I understand where Jazz is coming from - it's much easier for you to from your non-Russian home country, but for those in Russia, there *are* ways to educate and still be sensitive to what the law is, as Jazz said, support is available with families and doctors, so that's start.

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    It's a human right to be able to kiss in public? What is the human right being violated? I disagree with the law, but don't agree with people going to a country knowing they will deliberately break the law there.
    I didn't mention kissing in public, nor did I suggest it be part of a mass protest, but it is discrimination when it's illegal for gay people to kiss in public when a heterosexual couple can stick their tongues down each other's throats in Red Square. What is a violation of human rights is making supporting homosexuality illegal, which is only partially defined as "gay behavior." Things like gay people being beaten to within an inch of their life, a man sodomized by the police and hospitalized with a punctured intestine, or filmmakers being detained for asking people questions about homosexuality.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  15. #515

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    I think most of us can agree that the legislation is unfortunate and unfair to LGTB people. What we are disagreeing is how to deal with this Russian legislation and highlight its implications on LGTB in Russia, and perhaps some may hope that the Russian Parliament may rescind the law.

    I am not a Russophile and have no idea what the majority of the Russians think about this legislation. For all you know, many may not be even aware of this legislation. IMO, change from within is better than externally forced change for the latter is likely to be volatile. Certainly every country/athletic participant reserves their individual right to boycott or not to boycott the games whichever way they think is the best way forward.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  16. #516

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyljfphimpc

    GO TO JAIL!!!!!

    I was already to defend Sochi about things like weather or cost overruns or weather and blame it on the British media. But this is too much.

    And as if Chinese people don't ever complain when they come to other countries.

    What some, including me, are saying is that when you criticise another country's law and culture, don't expect them to like it - or it to make any positive difference. In fact, in this case, it will likely make negative difference. If you go there and don't obey the law, then you suffer the consequences of that, the same as if you break the law in any country. You don't have to like the law, but if you go there you *do* need to accept that it's their law.
    This is different than someone deciding to visit a country for the heck of it or setting up a business in another country. Russia decided to host the event and with that comes scrutiny. As host, the country has to be a lot more accommodating.

    It's a human right to be able to kiss in public? What is the human right being violated? I disagree with the law, but don't agree with people going to a country knowing they will deliberately break the law there.
    The privilege in the above statement is astounding.

  17. #517
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    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,3302742.story

    Will gays be safe at Russia's Winter Olympics?

    July 26, 2013, 2:59 p.m

    If you are gay, Russia is probably not the safest place to be right now. A slew of recent legislation has targeted people based on their sexual orientation.

  18. #518
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    I think Plushenko should shake things up and come out as gay. Wonder how Putin would handle that one. LOL

  19. #519

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    Here’s a crazy idea: Bring the 2014 Olympics back to Vancouver
    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canad...083623465.html
    But if this groundswell continues to build — and athletes and countries actually boycott — why not Vancouver 2014 as a Plan B?
    Most if not all the venues are still intact: Rogers Arena for hockey and figure skating, the Richmond Oval for speed skating and Whistler Olympic Park for cross country and downhill skiing, ski jumping, bobsleigh, skeleton, etc..
    It wouldn't be as grand as 2010, but has to be better then a sparsely attended Sochi 2014.
    Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  20. #520

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    US gay rights activists press for boycott of Russian products, Sochi Olympics
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/07/2...l#.UfQELG1pE8U
    "You've got to go economic," said Fort Lauderdale, Fla., activist Nate Klarfeld, former board chairman of the Stonewall National Museum & Archives. "The Olympics has turned into a business. Billions are paid for sponsorships. If NBC doesn't cover the Olympics, then Russia loses all its cachet. And when this all started, I said it's a no-brainer. We should just pour all the Stoli down the sewers."
    Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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