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  1. #341

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    Sochi Olympics will test gay rights

    Quote Originally Posted by dots View Post
    Well there goes the neighborhood

    This is quite scary tbh.


    Russia's Anti-Gay Law Will Impact Foreign Tourists, Possible Olympic Athletes: Report

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...avel&ir=Travel


    Doesn't Russia have bigger problems to tackle? Isn't child trafficking a huge problem over there? I remember reading a report from the UN that stated that 75% of child pornography was coming out of Russia.
    The biggest problem Russia had to tackle is its orphanages which are understaffed and overcrowded, where babies go for days without being held and older kids have to fight over toys, food and attention from staff.

  2. #342
    I <3 Kozuka
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    It wasn't illegal to write that then.

    When I was last in Estonia, I watched a re-run of a very popular Russian variety show, and the men appeared to be about as straight as Liberace. Will Russia have to close down that TV genre?
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  3. #343

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    Can Russian police target high-profile foreigners, such as Olympic athletes, who are known to be gay and outspoken in the past/in their own countries, even if avoid doing anything against this law while in Russia?

    If an out foreign athlete gives an interview to a news medium from their home country while on Russian soil and matter-of-factly refers to being gay, would Russian authorities construe that as actionable propaganda?

    Will homophobic Russian citizens be able to get away with attacking visiting foreigners who are known or suspected to be gay? Presumably physical attacks would also be against Russian law, but enforcement might be overlooked in this context.

    How many gay athletes will decide to go, compete, and deliberately keep a low profile to avoid anything that could get them into trouble? Or act as they would act in any venue without such laws, and take their chances? Either way, a shame that worrying about this would be a distraction from what they're really there for.

    And how many will choose to take a stand, either by refusing to go to Russia or by publicly challenging the law while there? Brave and risky, if principle is more important to them than Olympic competition.

  4. #344
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    This low is a shame....
    this is Moscow today,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTijT9b-vjMh INCREDIBLE BEAUTIFUL!!!
    this is a night club in Moscow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wprx6IKZUmU
    in St. Petersburg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQnscEbwYhM

    Can you imagine that the law is going to work? I hardly believe..

  5. #345

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    From Johnny's twitter:

    Johnny Weir-Voronov ‏@JohnnyGWeir 3h
    For all that keep tweeting me regarding Russia+Anti-LGBT+Me, I'll be writing about it for my next column with @fcnp out next Thursday.

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by dots View Post
    At it boy! Speaking like someone who couldn't give a sh!t about others.

    We should stop caring about those pesky "gays" right now!
    I mean whatever man, I have problems of my own.
    And where were gay activists in 1974, when Moscow was selected to host the Olympics? In 1980, when Moscow hosted the games? Or even in 2007, when Sochi was selected, and, as I mentioned upthread, Russia had a well-known record of persecution of gay people?

    Ultimately, all of us should care about the treatment of gay people, Jews, neighboring countries, journalists, etc. What I find disturbing is the concept that things should stop because of the concerns of one group when other groups are treated just as badly, if not worse, and that one group does not express solidarity with the others.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    And where were gay activists in 1974, when Moscow was selected to host the Olympics? In 1980, when Moscow hosted the games? Or even in 2007, when Sochi was selected, and, as I mentioned upthread, Russia had a well-known record of persecution of gay people?

    Ultimately, all of us should care about the treatment of gay people, Jews, neighboring countries, journalists, etc. What I find disturbing is the concept that things should stop because of the concerns of one group when other groups are treated just as badly, if not worse, and that one group does not express solidarity with the others.
    Really Vagabond? Really??

    1) I'm 33 yrs. of age, hardly a kid, and I can tell you I wasn't around back then. I'm sure a lot of us were not around back then.

    2) This new wave of LGBT activism only got serious momentum up until around 2010. You might as well be talking about the 1800's.

    3) What I find disturbing is that you called us "That one group" worse you just called us selfish for calling out others who discriminate us.

    and that one group does not express solidarity with the others
    I'm waiting with anticipation when you come back to explain what you mean by this. Please Vagabond, don't hold back! Be as explicit & honest as you can be.

  8. #348
    Blergh
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    Blaming a lack of solidarity (when there should be, I agree with that) or ignorance of other incidences that happen that may be just as oppressive to other groups doesn't really deal with the ultimate issue at hand. All controversies and movements that gain wide recognition and publicity do so because the narrative captures the attention of a majority or a big proportion of the population. Sad that PR and marketing plays such a big role, but it does. Hopefully, there will be sects in that "one group" that will bring attention to other forms of oppression that happens.

    Anyway, the reason why this controversy is ripe at the moment is because not only have the LGBTQ community made some strides in being recognized as people deserving of equal treatment, but that Russia has recently passed an explicitly antagonistic law right before one of the biggest public spectacles that will make the country go under scrutiny on a global scale.

    Again, other forms of oppression do need to paid attention to, but there's no sense of blaming "one group" (whatever that means) that people have sympathized with their cause. Not to mention that "one group" is pretty heterogeneous and can't be painted with a broad brush. The LGBTQ community is full of people with different attitudes and politics regarding race/ethnic issues, war and security issues, economic issues, social issues, etc. Again, I agree that when one group is as explicitly oppressed as the LGBTQ community is in Russia, then you'd hope that members of that group on a global scale will also care about other forms of oppression, but there will always be self-serving people who only care when something affects or attacks them personally. That goes for ALL groups.

    I can maybe understand some exasperation that "gay issues" are taking ahold of the public consciousness and it seems like homophobia, as of late, is getting attention that seems disproportionate to other kinds of animosity towards other groups, but it's not as if the LGBTQ population isn't under attack in Russia. Sorry that you feel that things shouldn't halt because of the oppression of "only one group" but I don't see how it is in anyway disturbing that people would want things to "halt" because they care about that group. I mean the narrative for World War II for the longest time was the genocide of the Jews whereas many other ethnic and sexual groups were targeted in a similar manner but haven't gained nearly the same amount of attention and sympathy until recently. Does that take away what the Nazis did to the Jews? No.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 07-14-2013 at 05:39 AM.

  9. #349
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    To assume that LGBT (or the more recent LGBTQ (Q for QUEER/ others have it for "questioning")) community does not care for other oppressed groups is right down insulting.

    It's like it's ok for other groups to tell their stories, but how dare the gays do so. If not now, when will it be ok to do it then?

    I want to know why pushing for equality makes people think we don't want the same for others. What makes people think we can't do both?

    As a gay man who has done charity for Unicef, children International, and donated thousands of dollars to MSF (Doctors without Borders) this is right down insulting.

    Being gay makes us less likely to help others? According to who?

  10. #350
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    I don't think anything will happen on this regard at Sochi Olympics no matter how much you hope it to happen.

  11. #351
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  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Blaming a lack of solidarity (when there should be, I agree with that) or ignorance of other incidences that happen that may be just as oppressive to other groups doesn't really deal with the ultimate issue at hand.
    If you ask me, the "ultimate issues" here are whether Russia's deplorable human rights record (1) warranted not awarding the Games to Sochi back in 2007 and (2) warrants boycotting the Games now. The treatment of gay people is only one aspect of this record.

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Anyway, the reason why this controversy is ripe at the moment is because not only have the LGBTQ community made some strides in being recognized as people deserving of equal treatment, but that Russia has recently passed an explicitly antagonistic law right before one of the biggest public spectacles that will make the country go under scrutiny on a global scale.
    As I mentioned in Post #178, Russia's record on gay rights was well known in 2007. As far as I remember and from what I have been able to find by hunting around on the Internet since this thread was started, gay-rights groups -- both inside and outside of Russia -- did not speak up during the bidding process. The time to speak up was then, and, in fact, other groups such as Greenpeace, the World Wildlife Federation, and organizations representing Circassians and local residents did speak up.

    The Games could have been to awarded to some other city. Pyeongchang, which was the runnerup and which will host the Games in 2018, would have been a good choice. So would have Salzburg. But they were awarded to Sochi, and the athletes, NOC's, federations, and organizers have all been preparing for the competitions.

    In my opinion, it is myopic to suggest, with less than a year before the Games, that some new legislation, which is in fact of a piece with Russia's overall treatment of gay people, somehow changes things to such an extent that athletes should be expected to boycott. If, on the other hand, fans choose not to travel to Russia precisely because of the legislation, I certainly understand and respect their decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by dots View Post
    1) I'm 33 yrs. of age, hardly a kid, and I can tell you I wasn't around back then. I'm sure a lot of us were not around back then.

    2) This new wave of LGBT activism only got serious momentum up until around 2010. You might as well be talking about the 1800's.

    3) What I find disturbing is that you called us "That one group" worse you just called us selfish for calling out others who discriminate us.

    and that one group does not express solidarity with the others
    I'm waiting with anticipation when you come back to explain what you mean by this. Please Vagabond, don't hold back! Be as explicit & honest as you can be.
    Quote Originally Posted by dots View Post
    To assume that LGBT (or the more recent LGBTQ (Q for QUEER/ others have it for "questioning")) community does not care for other oppressed groups is right down insulting.

    It's like it's ok for other groups to tell their stories, but how dare the gays do so. If not now, when will it be ok to do it then?

    I want to know why pushing for equality makes people think we don't want the same for others. What makes people think we can't do both?

    As a gay man who has done charity for Unicef, children International, and donated thousands of dollars to MSF (Doctors without Borders) this is right down insulting.

    Being gay makes us less likely to help others? According to who?
    History doesn't begin when one individual becomes conscious of current events.

    People and organizations have been actively and publicly fighting for gay rights since before the Stonewall Riots in 1969. If you ask me, the only things new about LGBT activism in the past three years are (1) its focus on marriage, (2) a measure of success in legal recognition of gay marriage and in public acceptance of gay people as an integral part of the larger community, and (3) the participation of certain individuals.

    The gay-rights movement was hardly quiescent back in 2007 (or even farther back in 1974 and 1980 -- but this thread is really about Sochi rather than Moscow). The International Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans and Intersex Association was founded in 1978. The The International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission was founded in 1990. The The International Lesbian & Gay Law Association was founded in 1999. LGBT Human Rights Project GayRussia was founded in 2005. The Russian LGBT Network was founded in 2006.

    As far as I can tell, these organizations didn't do anything back in 2007 to advocate for awarding the 2014 Games to some other city than Sochi. What's more, they don't seem to think a possible boycott merits any discussion on their websites!

    I am sure that there were LGBTQQI individuals involved in the anti-Sochi lobbying by Greenpeace and those other groups back in 2007, but there is a difference between arguing on environmental grounds that the Games should not be held in Sochi and arguing that on gay-rights grounds that they should not be held there (or should be boycotted). There is also a difference between the actions of one gay man and an entire gay-rights organization.

    Now, when gay-rights groups say that they have a common struggle with the Circassians and Russian journalists, I will have a different view of the matter.

    Having said that, I do think that this post

    Quote Originally Posted by dots View Post
    At it boy! Speaking like someone who couldn't give a sh!t about others.

    We should stop caring about those pesky "gays" right now!
    I mean whatever man, I have problems of my own.
    reflects, at the very least a total lack of understanding of what danceronice was saying -- that the Soviets oppressed millions of people and many different groups inside and outside their country. Whether it also reflects a lack of caring on your part for those who had their rights and cultural identities trammeled by the Soviets, I will leave for you to determine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    I don't think anything will happen on this regard at Sochi Olympics no matter how much you hope it to happen.
    You got that one right.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 07-15-2013 at 04:44 AM.

  13. #353

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    New Russian Anti-Gay Law May Wreak Havoc on International Sporting Events in Russia

    Source, International Competitive Figure Skating – Issues and Events
    There is nothing more captivating in this world than a woman's form gracing the ice in skating boots. It's simply sensational!

  14. #354
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    Did you know at Caucasus the Russian regions are Krasnodar Krai, Stavropol Krai, and the autonomous republics of Adygea, Karachay–Cherkessia, Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, and Dagestan?! Sochi is located there. It is good to know that more than 90% of Caucasus people are voting for Vladimir Putin, because he always takes into consideration opinions of those people.

    Russians voted for this law, which not allows any gay propaganda for underage children, less than 18 years of age. It has nothing to do with the action against any adult’s lifestyle; adults choose to be gay or lesbian. It was underlined by lawmakers many times in Russian media.

    Before anyone starts claiming something about this issue, the best would be to investigate the roots and analyze the reasons or at least to read the law.

    The Caucasus is one of the most linguistically and culturally diverse regions on Earth. Remember, Russia is not one nation country and opinions of every nation are important to the lawmakers. If 140 million or 99% of the Russians are agreeing with the law, why not to respect it?!

    Don’t do any gay propaganda in Russia when children under 18 years of age around you, that is all.

    You might not agree with the Russian law, but you don’t live there and you don’t know every culture there. Please, do some studies first before starting to criticize something you don’t even have the knowledge. People from developed counties should respect people’s opinion from developing countries ; they might need some time and to come their own way, so please stop to teach your lesson.

    It is hard to believe some people can't to come to this conclusion on their own.

    Many regions in Russia still don’t have the gas and water in houses, Caucasus including. (watch third link below)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5okNCcShRE8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9LkKIyJAR8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTj5V1B9fQ4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwTwH69UZ8U
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls3e8RUu3pk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPX8ZN8h2R4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQS4V2rhJQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rSq6KdVG0Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwTrqfnc3vM

  15. #355

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    What is propaganda has not been defined. People are saying if a landlord who owns a building with kids under 18 and decides to knowingly rent to a gay couple he might be engaging in propaganda aimed at kids under 18! I've read that! If a man or woman is walking down the street and has a pin with Elton johns face on it he might be engaging in propaganda aimed at kids under 18! I have read that! A shirt with a rainbow on it might be equal to if you are passing out literature about homosexual sex being just as acceptable as heterosexual sex to 13 year olds.
    Last edited by caseyedwards; 07-15-2013 at 07:57 AM.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    Did you know at Caucasus the Russian regions are Krasnodar Krai, Stavropol Krai, and the autonomous republics of Adygea, Karachay–Cherkessia, Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, and Dagestan?! Sochi is located there. It is good to know that more than 90% of Caucasus people are voting for Vladimir Putin, because he always takes into consideration opinions of those people.

    Russians voted for this law, which not allows any gay propaganda for underage children, less than 18 years of age. It has nothing to do with the action against any adult’s lifestyle; adults choose to be gay or lesbian. It was underlined by lawmakers many times in Russian media.

    Before anyone starts claiming something about this issue, the best would be to investigate the roots and analyze the reasons or at least to read the law.

    The Caucasus is one of the most linguistically and culturally diverse regions on Earth. Remember, Russia is not one nation country and opinions of every nation are important to the lawmakers. If 140 million or 99% of the Russians are agreeing with the law, why not to respect it?!

    Don’t do any gay propaganda in Russia when children under 18 years of age around you, that is all.

    You might not agree with the Russian law, but you don’t live there and you don’t know every culture there. Please, do some studies first before starting to criticize something you don’t even have the knowledge. People from developed counties should respect people’s opinion from developing countries ; they might need some time and to come their own way, so please stop to teach your lesson.

    It is hard to believe some people can't to come to this conclusion on their own.

    Many regions in Russia still don’t have the gas and water in houses, Caucasus including. (watch third link below)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5okNCcShRE8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9LkKIyJAR8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTj5V1B9fQ4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwTwH69UZ8U
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls3e8RUu3pk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPX8ZN8h2R4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQS4V2rhJQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rSq6KdVG0Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwTrqfnc3vM
    I calmed down a bit, so I have a bit more understandable. I'm high interest in Russia, enthrall the size, diversity. Russia is a great potential, and really believe the Russian people are the most strongest people on the World. I love the Russian culture, beautiful buildings, music and ballet. I'm amazed at the country's development of what people achieved during the 20 years of democracy. And then came the news about the law .. I was really surprised, I could not believe it!!! And sometimes we tend to forget just how vast this country is not only made ​​up of a modern metropolitan of Moscow and St. Petersburg. Thank you for the links, great dancers!!! I especially love the first!! (I recognized Roberto Carlos )

    This is Russia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqI8QsAZAYQ so great and incredible.. and crazy...
    Last edited by lala; 07-15-2013 at 12:07 PM.

  17. #357

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    I think parts of this thread (if not all of it) may be a better fit in PI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    Russians voted for this law, which not allows any gay propaganda for underage children, less than 18 years of age. It has nothing to do with the action against any adult’s lifestyle; adults choose to be gay or lesbian. [B]It was underlined by lawmakers many times in Russian media.
    Define "gay propaganda". Is it anything that might make an LGBT teenager (because not everyone under 18 is "a child") realize that who they are is not some awful thing and that they are not alone and don't deserve to be ashamed or bullied? Is it anything that might make straight people think that The Gays are not horrible people with some kind of agenda to convert the straights? Anything that makes it clear that being LGBT isn't someone that one "chooses" in adulthood?

    You might not agree with the Russian law, but you don’t live there and you don’t know every culture there. Please, do some studies first before starting to criticize something you don’t even have the knowledge.
    I also don't know the culture in countries where abortion is outlawed even for 11 year old rape victims, or where female circumcision is allowed, or where freedom of speech does not exist, or where children can be put to work in sweatshops. Should people refrain from expressing their opinion in all those cases, too? I think that it should be obvious that cultural relativism can only be taken so far.

    By the same logic, it would appear that many in Russia don't have much knowledge about LGBT issues. Maybe they should educate themselves before legislating anti-gay policies?

    People from developed counties should respect people’s opinion from developing countries
    You know, this for the most part I do agree with; sometimes people can be very smug and superior in judging the choices of those from other cultures. But there is a difference between making choices and governing your own life and using bigoted opinions as a basis for legislation that infringes on the rights of others.

  18. #358
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    The opinion of an American gay rights activist...via Twitter:

    David Mixner ‏@DavidMixner 4h
    The LGBT Community, Russia And The Olympics http://bit.ly/18XJfvR

  19. #359
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    Russia Says It Will Arrest Openly Gay Tourists

    The article doesn't really add much new info to the discussion and some would argue the tone is overly dramatic. No word on whether any ice skaters performing to the Brokeback Mountain soundtrack will be escorted off the ice in the middle of their performance however.
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

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    Russia doesn't say that travel and escape says that based on their reading of the law and that propaganda is everything imaginable! Effeminate actions from a male in a TV sketch show program is illegal to some!

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