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  1. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    People die everyday from gun violence in US. Should foreigners come to US and protest for US gun laws?
    Yes, please.

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  3. #743
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    Other countries fund NGOs to work against capital punishment in the U.S., certain countries will not allow criminals to be extradited to the U.S. because of our death penalty. Now, that certainly challenges the will of the American people which is pro-capital punishment, although that is changing. But so what?

    Fred, you yelled at us Amerikuns (well, the ones arguing with you, I was shyly on the sidelines) for supporting candidates who were less than supportive of gay marriage, including Obama in the first term. How is it bad for American liberals to support otherwise-preferable candidates who are cowardly on gay rights, but not bad for us to advocate a boycott of a country with such a specifically and pro-actively repressive law?

    And don't answer that the second one prevents us from watching good figure skating.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  4. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I do think you understand all of this as this really was discussed many times throughout the thread, and yet you keep bringing up the same argument.
    Like many posters and yourself

    I'm disgusted with these Nazi Germany comparasons. There are some lies to intentionally work up people's anger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Yes, please.
    What will happen then?

  5. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    What will happen then?
    The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the basilisk's den.

  6. #746

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    I'm disgusted with these Nazi Germany comparasons. There are some lies to intentionally work up people's anger.
    It's disgusting legislation, so why are you disgusted that it's being described as such? Would you like to argue that people have been lying and there is no anti-gay law in Russia? That Russia doesn't have a history of human rights abuses? No, this isn't up there with Nazi Germany, but it's nasty and ugly and should be criticized in the strongest possible terms. And please, spare me the "it's only about gay propaganda aimed at children" excuse, because we all know that this "propaganda" refers to anything that might suggest that gays are neither evil nor pedophiles.

    This is the sort of stuff Anita Bryant and her pals were campaigning for in the US - in the 1970s. We're in the 21st century now, and there's no excuse to pass such ignorant, hateful legislation, or to support it.

  7. #747

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Well, it's obviously the strand the US Holocaust Memorial Museum is going to pick in fairness. I was well-acquainted with the content of the exhibition.*

    I would have thought that letting the Nazis occupy other countries and territories showed them that could get away with what they wanted more than hosting the Olympics though.

    I can only speak for myself, but when I think of the 1936 Olympics the first thing that comes to mind is Jesse Owens creating history by winning four gold medals and simultaneously undermining the Nazi's theory of Aryan superiority at the same time.



    Isn't that what we're doing here?

    By all means, if individual athletes want to boycott Sochi because of the Russian government's treatment of minorities then that is their prerogative. The bottom line though is that Olympics boycotts historically haven't worked at all. Ever.

    The best that those of us living in countries where we are fortunate to have fought for and achieved significant rights for our LGBT citizens is to continue to strengthen those rights and lead by example. I don't mean to sound dismissive by saying that, but you aren't going to effect social change in another country, particularly one as large and self-sufficient as Russia, through boycotts. Significantly, I've yet to hear of a single LGBT organisation in Russia who thinks a Sochi boycott is a good idea.

    *Full disclosure, I'm pretty much completely (and scarily) obsessed with anything concerning the Olympics.
    alleafred,


  8. #748
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    How prevalent was the Jesse Owens narrative of raining on Hitler's parade at the time, compared to the goodwill created towards Germany then and the willingness of people to ignore the increasing malevolence towards Jews, gays, and everyone else on Hitler's list because the Games were so well organized and the German hosts so hospitable during them, and how much of it is in retrospect?
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  9. #749
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    Significantly, I've yet to hear of a single LGBT organisation in Russia who thinks a Sochi boycott is a good idea.
    Maybe they are afraid to express their opinion on the issue publicly. Just a thought.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  10. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post

    Fred, you yelled at us Amerikuns (well, the ones arguing with you, I was shyly on the sidelines) for supporting candidates who were less than supportive of gay marriage, including Obama in the first term. How is it bad for American liberals to support otherwise-preferable candidates who are cowardly on gay rights, but not bad for us to advocate a boycott of a country with such a specifically and pro-actively repressive law?
    It's not bad. It's just futile. And I had a vote in that election too, in any case.

    Whether it's abortion in Ireland, gun control or the death penalty in the US, human rights in China or gay rights in Russia, change isn't going to happen with external pressure. It has to come from within the country itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    And don't answer that the second one prevents us from watching good figure skating.
    Are you going to turn your back to the TV when the Olympics is on then?
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Maybe they are afraid to express their opinion on the issue publicly. Just a thought.
    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/07/31...tt-homophobia/

    “The Russian LGBT Network applauds the actions of individuals and organisations who address the escalating official and societal homophobia in Russia, and we are with them in the commitment to the protection of the rights and freedoms of LGBT people and allies. Numerous initiatives in regards the 2014 Winter Olympics are successfully garnering support worldwide, with the centrepiece of the debate being the pro- / counter-boycott considerations. We would like to join the momentum and share our vision.

    “While we value diversity in approaches and welcome all efforts that forward justice and equality, we will contribute the work of the LGBT Network to the promotion of proactive participation in the Games instead of a boycott.

    “We believe that calls for the spectators to boycott Sochi, for the Olympians to retreat from competition, and for governments, companies, and national Olympic committees to withdraw from the event risk to transform the powerful potential of the Games in a less powerful gesture that would prevent the rest of the world from joining LGBT people, their families and allies in Russia in solidarity and taking a firm stance against the disgraceful human rights record in this country.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  12. #752
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    Are internal groups not energized or validated by external support? I get literature from anti-death penalty groups, for example, that lists various international condemnation of US death penalty statutes and practices among its arguments for support, moral and financial.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  13. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    In 1936, both summer and winter Olympics were held in Nazi Germany. Since then, Olympics have been held in Communist dictatorships 3 times. In each case, it appears the IOC was successful in keeping the gestapo storm-troopers out of the Olympic village. I have read that host governments must make certain assurances before they are granted the games. I seriously doubt there will be any trouble inside the village itself.
    It may be true that the dictatorship countries have kept things in control. However, we can't rule out trouble in the Olympic village, remember Munich in '72 and Atlanta in '96.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    This is what the LGBT protest looks like in Russia
    a bunch of gays and lesbians who come to protest against the new law. The russian orthodox who make sure to show up there and beat the crap out of them. The police is standing aside and makes sure to arrest the gays/lesbians.
    What a fun place to be gay.....
    Interesting that at one time Russia tried to squelch religion all together, now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    But boycotts are not decided by the athletes and have happened before. I don't think a boycott will happen over gay rights though- I'm not sure what country has progressed that far that they would do it.
    I would hope many would after the brutality shown in Russia recently.

    And I agree that Olympic boycotts have never been shown to help. But, we have never seen a universal boycott of an Olympic Games. One country boycotting will not effect their pocketbooks, but 30 countries boycotting would.

  14. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Are internal groups not energized or validated by external support? I get literature from anti-death penalty groups, for example, that lists various international condemnation of US death penalty statutes and practices among its arguments for support, moral and financial.
    And have we had any Russian LGBT group stating that a Sochi boycott would help them?
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  15. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post

    Whether it's abortion in Ireland, gun control or the death penalty in the US, human rights in China or gay rights in Russia, change isn't going to happen with external pressure. It has to come from within the country itself.

    This is the argument my own organization uses in opposing boycotts of Israel -- not that it is in itself an evil strategy, it's quite legitimate, but that in a quasi-democratic country the change has to come from within. But if you're a Palestinian who's been living under occupation for 46 years, I forgive you for not accepting the argument.

    Look, if the Russian LGBT groups freely, without fear or intimidation, oppose a boycott then those voices should be heeded. But then Russia should pay a HUGE price in PR and goodwill from the minute the games start until the flame goes out. Every Potemkin village Putin builds should be set on fire, metaphorically speaking. Tell visitors, both athletes and fans, to bring flip cameras as well as their phones and post any intimidation they see. Expose, expose, expose and don't shut up.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  16. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I would hope many would after the brutality shown in Russia recently.

    And I agree that Olympic boycotts have never been shown to help. But, we have never seen a universal boycott of an Olympic Games. One country boycotting will not effect their pocketbooks, but 30 countries boycotting would.
    I wouldn't expect Olympic Committees from European countries to encourage their athletes to boycott the Games. Europe is heavily dependent on the Russian oil and gas supplies and they might not want to cross Mr. Putin.

  17. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    Expose, expose, expose and don't shut up.
    Exactly!
    Haunting the Princess of Pink since 20/07/11...

  18. #758

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I would hope many would after the brutality shown in Russia recently.

    And I agree that Olympic boycotts have never been shown to help. But, we have never seen a universal boycott of an Olympic Games. One country boycotting will not effect their pocketbooks, but 30 countries boycotting would.
    I agree with you but, even as a gay male, I cannot imagine any country boycotting over gay rights. As much as we have progressed recently, I don't think we're there yet. Sad to say, but it may take 10-20 years, at least.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  19. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I agree with you but, even as a gay male, I cannot imagine any country boycotting over gay rights. As much as we have progressed recently, I don't think we're there yet. Sad to say, but it may take 10-20 years, at least.
    I suppose I see this as more than Gay rights. I see this as human rights. The right of a human being to choose who they love, regardless of sex. To brutalize a person for that is unspeakable, whether or not you agree with their choice. I believe in Gay rights, fully. But, even if I didn't, I would still stand against the penalties Russia has mandated. I will never understand why people are so intolerant. You don't have to agree with a lifestyle to stand up for another's right to live it.

  20. #760

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    I haven't read this entire thread, just parts of it - and one question keeps coming to mind. Does the IOC not have protocols in place to protect its athletes and ensure that they have the same human rights (dignity of personhood, right to sexual orientation and religious freedom) in the host country that they have at home. The IOC does have an obligation to its athletes, or most certainly should. If a gay/lesbian/trans athlete is harmed due to their sexual orientation in Sochi, I would think the IOC would be implication.

    It's one thing to object to a country hosting the Olympics because of domestic human rights violations, but from the POV of the IOC, more serious when the rights of athletes are threatened.

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