Spins as choreography

[aliceanne]

Sorry but where did this concept come from? Ice coverage has

nothing to do with how a spin is used. And judging takes into consideration much more than just ice coverage.

Spins are a required element in a program. So skaters have to do them. They get judged on their own merits for the GOE. But in the GOE guidelines skaters can earn positive GOE for if the element fitting into the musical structure and phrasing. And if the spins work as part of the choreographic structure, that can be considered in the components.

In fact if consideration is not given to where the spins are placed in the program ie the skater just does them without consideration for the music, then that should be reflected in the CH mark.

If Gusermoli did that program today, the one thing you would definitely give her credit for is the way the spins were used. They may not have been used throughout the program, but they fitted in with the music so well and made the program what it is. You definitely remember that program for those spins alone. That is why a few of us have mentioned it.

I don't know what everyone found so confusing about my comment. I am well aware that spins are required elements in technical competition. I was pointing out that spins take up time but they don't provide ice coverage, which is why you need to use them judiciously even if it is your skater's strong point.

The title of the thread is spins in choreography not spins and the IJS. I was pointing out a choreographic limitation in using spins.

[Aussie Willy]

I don't know what everyone found so confusing about my comment. I am well aware that spins are required elements in technical competition. I was pointing out that spins take up time but they don't provide ice coverage, which is why you need to use them judiciously even if it is your skater's strong point.

The title of the thread is spins in choreography not spins and the IJS. I was pointing out a choreographic limitation in using spins.

Well to quote you:

I've always found the biggest drawback to using spins in choreography is that unlike footwork and jumps they don't provide any ice coverage, and skaters are judged on how well they use the entire ice surface.

Going by your comment, it reads that you are suggesting that because spins don't cover the ice, then it affects the way the program is judged. You didn't elaborate any more than that.

Putting spins into a program comes down the basic concept of program construction and element placement. Same goes for jumps and footwork. If they don't fit with the music the program isn't going to work anyway.

[JJS5056]

IIRC, ca. 2000-2003 the well-balanced program rules required a spiral sequence from ladies and a "field moves" sequence from men, along with a step sequence and at least four spins -- which very quickly became at most for spins (for points) under IJS, and then at most three a few years later.

As for why skaters and coaches don't put extra elements at the end when they won't gain points, one reason may be that they don't have enough time or energy left after working hard to get as many points as possible on the elements that will earn points.

The other reason would be just failing to think outside the actual element boxes.

Thanks for the clarification on the well-balanced rules guidelines. Either way, skaters included spirals in their programs long before they were required. Now, over the course of two programs, we're lucky to get a brief arabesque thrown into the CH sequence. Trust me, I'm not looking for a return to the spirals of 04-10, but with it no longer being a required technical element, I would have imagined we would begin seeing a return to classic positions used as hightlights within programs. Instead, they've all but disappeared.

I think your second reasoning is closest to the truth- failing to think outside the actual elements. COP has certainly played a huge role in templatizing programs, but choreographers and coaches aren't completely innocent. A select few have taken the challenge and managed to create masterpieces- see Savchenko/Szolkowy's best programs- while others still paint by numbers.

Totally understand that endurance could be an issue, but skaters performed 4 spins prior to 2009 and seemed to bey okay. Additionally, since a fourth spin wouldn't count, it wouldn't be held to any of the same standards- a 3-rev layback would be just fine (though, again, I would think and hope these elite skaters could handle 8 revs in a classic position ).

Anyway, just a few examples of where I wish choreographers would look to put their own spin on what is typically a very rigid and standardized system of rules.

[Aussie Willy]

I like the idea of a choreography spin where all spins are a level one and their skater is marked purely on GOE.

[Marco]

Travelling camels do provide ice coverage (and some of Slutskaya's spins do too )

[Impromptu]

It's a professional program, I watched it live at World Pros. Over 25 years later, I still remember the spin at the end of it and how perfectly it went with the program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcO2yqtwb8w

[Aussie Willy]

Travelling camels do provide ice coverage (and some of Slutskaya's spins do too )

I like the saying "That spin travelled so much you need a passport for it".

[DustPuppyOI]

Yukina Ota 2003 SP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LvJxsA88A
The spins and the variety of arm positions went with the music

Lucinda Ruh 1999 Worlds LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0fvU4wnp34
Pre IJS but still always loved the musicality


Aleksandr Fadeev 1994 World Pro Artistic Program
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScbXM-ZGoUc
No way legal under IJS but I've always loved the traveling sit spins at the end.

Yebin Mok 2003 Nationals SP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlv6n5EQq3U

Naomi Nari Nam 1999 LP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S7EEHAM6nU
Always loved how the traveling camel spins went with the music near the end.

[Vash01]

Paul Wylie used spins very effectively, as part of the choreography, in his programs- at the right moment, the right kind of spin. Under COP however I don't know if it will work that well.