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  1. #181
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    Different clips for comparison that I found:

    Mao Asada 2012 Cup of China FS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXZzkLjNCs8

    Yuna Kim 2013 Korea Nationals FS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6EPLSSch1w

    Already posted, not quite fair as comparison as it is taken from a different angle and makes Carolina look like she is skating faster than she actually is in relation to Mao and Yuna, but still, better than nothing, I suppose:

    Carolina Kostner 2012 Golden Spin
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRevSNTNMKc

    I found it very interesting because it really showed the different style of set up that they have. Mao has mostly 2-3 front crossovers and very few back crossovers if any, followed by several transitions and very short prep for jump. Yuna’s is basically 4-6 back crossovers followed by fewer transitions covered with speed and taking longer prep time for the jump. Carolina has, I feel, surging power to her skating that is on another level. But… her set up so obviously telegraphs ‘I… am… going… to… JUMP!’ And then, she doubles, or steps out.

    I guess even the setups show their individual strengths.

  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Okay, you made me do this: how can she be considered a complete package if she's lacking a Pooh tissue box?
    Very astute. Maybe I should send Dai my Kungfu Panda box, it is clearly what he REALLY need (Or Morozov seen carrying.) Afterall, Kungfu Panda totally kicks butt Pooh anyday; one eat Chinese noodles, one eat honey, it is no contest. He need Shifu like strength and zen to complete his package. I will even fill the box with MAN SIZE CLEAN-EX tissues, 3 ply of Anti-Viral PCS protection against blase/biased judging/skating politics. I only wish it will kill 99.9% of Morozov viruses too, to ensure complete moisture intact Daisuke will be available with natural free aroma, capable of miraculous respiration in the face of utter danger and other causes of mysterious infection.

    FWIW, I don't think any of the three should be considered a "complete skater", and I find the subject silly. The whole point is that they have different strengths and weaknesses, and different fans will emphasize certain characteristics over others, thus affecting how each is perceived.
    I agree. There's no such thing as complete skater, human, or perfection. To claim such thing will require some divine power and lots of luck. However, I'd like to think everyone is capable of fulfill and exceed their potentials, and rise to the challenge. When such occasion arises like at the Olympics at Vancouver, the sport saw its very bests getting as close to perfection when it requires them the most. Everyone towards the final flight were able to get as close to being complete in their own way. I am excited by how everyone seems to have raised their game substantially and the promise of a heart racing exciting competition where everyone is capable of pushing the sport once more. The field seems deeper than at the Olympics, will the 3 leading ladies all upped their ante again, will they make personal breakthroughs? I may have my preferences, but even that, I think it is a fair game on the day where everyone is capable of winning if they bring their best, and if they did, no one truly lose.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    [/URL]

    FWIW, I don't think any of the three should be considered a "complete skater", and I find the subject silly. The whole point is that they have different strengths and weaknesses, and different fans will emphasize certain characteristics over others, thus affecting how each is perceived.
    In the spirit of Robeye's argument, you can be a complete skater and have weaknesses - but we are talking about competitive completeness. I would argue that ANY skater that consistently (say, 80% of competitions?) receive only positive GOE on spins, footwork, jumps, and spirals is a 'complete skater'. This far from makes a skater perfect, or even winning - if your tech content is too low, but with only positive GOEs you are probably pleasant to watch, but not going to win.

    Now, I haven't gone through protocols for these 3 excessively to see if any of them could be considered 'complete' in that regard, and it may even not be that relevant to this discussion, as they all still have different strengths and weaknesses.

  4. #184
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    About the notion of complete package:
    Of course, no one is complete, if this word means 'perfect.' But, in figure skating, I don't think this is idle verbiage. For me, when they say Yuna is a complete package, they simply mean that she is beautiful to watch as well, as she marries musicality and much more to exceptional technical strengths. Before Yuna's time, I used to be mesmerized by Sasha, who could never be called a complete package because of her falls etc. Another obvious example is Midori, a jumping genius who fails to conjure up 'complete package,' in spite of her awe-inspiring athleticism.

  5. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguitarist View Post
    . . . I'm here also to see if these people with 'innocent opinions' will take my opinions as such, without resorting to vocabularies such as 'troll,' 'yunabot' . . .
    But we already know you doubt FSU is capable of that, so why come here?

    Quote Originally Posted by theguitarist View Post
    Yep, this makes me wonder if FSU is not a carefully-planned sociological experiment conducted by some Big Brother.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    The oft-repeated statement that Yuna is the "complete package" is, IMO, correct.

    -When a Michelle Kwan or a Peggy Fleming evince such a view, it generally means that the skater has the skills to score highly in all the major elements and components being judged. Their opinions therefore include the (quite factual) premise that Yuna's spirals/spins/positions will score well. People like Michelle and Peggy assume as a matter of course that it is understood that skating is first and foremost a competitive pursuit, and that therefore notions such as "complete package" make communally verifiable sense only in this context.

    -AFAIK, there is no explicit bullet point for "nice looking" (or even an official definition).

    -To say (as Michelle and Peggy, and many others, have done) that Yuna is the complete package is not necessarily to say that she is perfect. It is merely stating what should be obvious: Yuna has no glaring weaknesses from an objective, competitive perspective, despite offending the personal table of values of some of her critics.
    Thank you! That's basically what I meant. Yuna did everything decently and she was fairly consistent as a competitor. She didn't have the best positions and lines, but she was a good actress; she did not have all the jumps but the ones she had she did them extremely well; She did not have the fastest/effortless steps and turns but she managed to have enough numbers in there to get the point. And when the stars lined up she skated a flawless LP without any fall! Can't remember when did she have another clean LP before that. Yana's SP were almost always good and exciting. I always prefer Yuna's SP to her LP except the Lark Accending program.

    Personally I believe Mao had the wrong programs for the 2010 Olympics. Her strength were her beautiful lines and the lightness of and elegance of a ballerina, as well as her pure innocent joy of skating, of cause her jumps too. She was not a drama queen( and still she is not). The forced drama and intensity didn't fit her skating style and personality.

    To me Yuna's skating is exciting, Mao's skating is lovely, pleasant, cheerful and soothing. That's the feeling I have in general.

    I really like the change of rules that restrict the number of 2As. if there was anything regretful about Yuna's Olympic, it would be the 3 2As in the LP. Now I'm really excited to see Mao's attempt to include all the triples. I wish Yuna get the 3L, and Mao get her jumps and two great programs that suit her. than it will be a real showdown of figure skating.

    As for Caro, I think she's trying to develop an edgy style, different, but not particularly appealing to my taste. I can appreciate that the programs show case her strength, but I would like to see more feeling expressed by the moves. Her programs don't touch me. IMO she is still in the process of finding the real/ best her.

  7. #187
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    Mao should have went for the Lipinski packaging to combat the more controlled Kim package which worked at the Olympics.

    Lipinski and her team exploited the criticisms that Kwan seemed too controlled or rehearsed and thus inauthentic. One couldn't say the same for Lipinski's exuberance. The stars aligned themselves, and Lipinski's freedom, speed, and of course triple jumps made the difference as Kwan was more reserved than usual at Nagano.

    If Mao had programs that would have showed off her strengths better, then she would have closed the gap a bit more. Of course, it would have taken a lot to overcome Kim at those games as she didn't leave any door open really.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Lipinski and her team exploited the criticisms that Kwan seemed too controlled or rehearsed and thus inauthentic.
    When did Tara ever say that about Michelle? Do you have a link? I adored both girls and don't remember either of them behaving poorly like that. Pat and Danny were another story though...

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    When did Tara ever say that about Michelle? Do you have a link? I adored both girls and don't remember either of them behaving poorly like that. Pat and Danny were another story though...
    I didn't say Tara said anything.

    I said that Tara was seen as a breath of fresh air in the 1996-1997 season when Kwan decided to do another heavy, thematic program. Her exuberance, joy, and energy contrasted with Kwan's style. I was just saying I think Bezic and Callaghan knew what they were doing when they decided to continue that path with Tara and take it up a notch with her 1998 programs. They couldn't compete against Kwan on her strengths, so they highlighted what made Tara special and different from Kwan.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 02-22-2013 at 01:38 AM.

  10. #190

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    I think complete package is a horrible euphemism. It is a way to say that certain skaters should win even if others have more difficult footwork, spin positions, and jumps. At least that was how Peggy used it.

    Peggy also had a habit of saying "she has the big package." For many men--gay and straight--this has a ring of something different from what Peggy is talking about.

    I think it is better to talk specifically about the quality of skating, poise, refinement, and interpretation rather than this "complete package" cliche, which ended up being applied for any lady who America wanted to win.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I didn't say Tara said anything.

    I said that Tara was seen as a breath of fresh air in the 1996-1997 season when Kwan decided to do another heavy, thematic program. Her exuberance, joy, and energy contrasted with Kwan's style. I was just saying I think Bezic and Callaghan knew what they were doing when they decided to continue that path with Tara and take it up a notch with her 1998 programs. They couldn't compete against Kwan on her strengths, so they highlighted what made Tara special and different from Kwan.
    Got it. It makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    whole thing
    Good morning, Bardtoob. What else is new? Btw, it's vaguely creepy that you go into my profile and dig out a several month-old post by me in another thread which I no longer recall what the topic or context was. I'm sorry to say that the interest is not mutual.

  13. #193
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    And here is a clip directly comparing Mao and Yuna’s short:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmCK8Ugt7s

    Too bad Carolina’s latest short program performance isn’t available yet.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonya71 View Post
    And here is a clip directly comparing Mao and Yuna’s short:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmCK8Ugt7s
    I prefer Mao's movements...

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonya71 View Post
    And here is a clip directly comparing Mao and Yuna’s short:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmCK8Ugt7s

    Too bad Carolina’s latest short program performance isn’t available yet.
    Thanks for the comparison. The programs are like night and day: Yu-Na's is darker and haunting while Mao's is upbeat and energetic. It's hard to compare the styles b/c they are complete opposites! It's really going to come down to how they execute.

  16. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguitarist View Post
    Good morning, Bardtoob. What else is new? Btw, it's vaguely creepy that you go into my profile and dig out a several month-old post by me in another thread which I no longer recall what the topic or context was. I'm sorry to say that the interest is not mutual.
    FSU is a community, so of course others can remember what you say recently in a similar context. There is nothing unusual about that. That is the nature of a community.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 02-22-2013 at 05:48 PM.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonya71 View Post
    And here is a clip directly comparing Mao and Yuna’s short:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmCK8Ugt7s

    Too bad Carolina’s latest short program performance isn’t available yet.
    Interesting, thanks for posting this.
    I was surprised how little I liked both their camels - I think they both look sloppy? I much prefer something like this Alexander Johnson at US nationals (yes I realize it is a guy, and at a different level, but I don't see why both Kim and Asada can't have a nice stretch and arched back like this?)

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by theguitarist View Post
    Good morning, Bardtoob. What else is new? Btw, it's vaguely creepy that you go into my profile and dig out a several month-old post by me in another thread which I no longer recall what the topic or context was. I'm sorry to say that the interest is not mutual.
    It's no one's fault that you made your posts so memorable.

  19. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonya71 View Post
    And here is a clip directly comparing Mao and Yuna’s short:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmCK8Ugt7s

    Too bad Carolina’s latest short program performance isn’t available yet.
    here you go
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVZ5QumnSpk

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by npavel View Post
    Fabulous, I hope she'll do the same at Worlds

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