Yu-Na, Carolina & Mao: A Comparison

[Jebrista]

I think transitions is very difficult to judge for these three.

I think Yu-Na has many areas where she does 4-5 crossovers in a row throughout the program. Also her jump entries (especially for lutz) are always the same and take a lot of time (especially lutz).

For Carolina, I agree with the fact that her entrances for jumps take long, and sometimes include little chases/hops/whatever they are (salchow), but due to her ability to gain speed without as many crossovers, her transitions other than her transitions going into jumps are quite good.

Mao, in my opinion, has the best transitions, especially into jumps. She does nice little steps into the loop and flip, and her steps before and after spins are very good, and keep the program going.

So I would place transitions:

Mao>Carolina>Yu-Na

Also, Choreographed Sequences:

Mao has a beautiful choreographed sequence that goes perfectly with the music.

Yu-Na's includes her beautiful ina-bauer which immediately goes into double axel , it's pretty. It's also speedy and interesting.

Carolina's goes with the music, and I like the idea of the many different/complicated arm movements, but I don't think there is enough "stuff." There is a spiral (relatively short) and a little hop, but there aren't many steps in the sequence.

For the choreographed sequence I place them:

Mao>Yu-Na>Carolina

[theguitarist]

Yu-na> Mao = Caro

Yu-na lacking musicality? Nonsense! She is in complete osmosis with music,which has been mentioned time after time by commentators around the world, as her signature quality.
As for Mao's artistry, I don't feel anywhere near 'art' or 'artistic' when I watch a skater with such a deer in the headlights look the whole time.
Caro is a great athlete who fails to elicit me either like or dislike.

[theguitarist]

[QUOTE]

I think transitions is very difficult to judge for these three.

I think Yu-Na has many areas where she does 4-5 crossovers in a row throughout the program. Also her jump entries (especially for lutz) are always the same and take a lot of time (especially lutz).

For Carolina, I agree with the fact that her entrances for jumps take long, and sometimes include little chases/hops/whatever they are (salchow), but due to her ability to gain speed without as many crossovers, her transitions other than her transitions going into jumps are quite good.

Mao, in my opinion, has the best transitions, especially into jumps. She does nice little steps into the loop and flip, and her steps before and after spins are very good, and keep the program going.

So I would place transitions:

Mao>Carolina>Yu-Na

This is why I love this forum. You're basically saying that 'Mao telegraphs her jumps, therefore she has better transitions'?

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Where did Jebrista say that Mao telegraphed her jumps?

[FSUSF]

Anyways I have been very surprised to learn recently that Yuna is not that well received as I thought.

It has been always like that here

[VIETgrlTerifa]

It's ok, she's more adored than disliked. Take solace in that.

Even though I personally think there are other skaters who have superior artistry and attributes in their skating, I can't deny the power of Kim and the way she managed to balance all that's necessary to become a convincing champion.

[bardtoob]

[QUOTE=theguitarist;3835382]

This is why I love this forum. You're basically saying that 'Mao telegraphs her jumps, therefore she has better transitions'?

You are such a funny little troll.

[FunnyBut]

Yu-na> Mao = Caro

Yu-na lacking musicality? Nonsense! She is in complete osmosis with music..

There are many of us who think highly of YuNa but think she falls just a bit short of 'complete osmosis with music'

[robinhood]

I think Yuna is very musical, as much as Mao and Carolina.
She just isn't as polished as these 2 in this moment. In these past seasons we have seen improvements in their expression, body awareness and music versatility, where as Yuna has stagnated a bit in that sense. Part of this is because of the programs she has and because she hasn't competed at all. She's still got time to improve and I'm sure by next year she will have better choreography

[Robeye]

I am always somewhat bemused at statements that Yuna is somehow lacking (relatively speaking) artistry and/or musicality. In reply, I can only quote the immortal Inigo Montoya:

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

In regard of musicality in particular, I am of the view that Yuna is among the most musical ladies skaters, ever. It's one of the reasons I am a fan of hers. I've already written at length about the whys and wherefores in this and other forums, so I won't repeat them.

It is, however, a curious thing that those in a privileged position to assess these aspects (e.g. former champions, prominent commentators, the judges who hand out the actual marks) almost uniformly have a much higher regard for Yuna's aesthetic qualities than many in this forum. Generally, she is ranked among the very best by the former group. On the other hand, if I were a new skate-watcher, and read only the comments I see here, I might be forgiven for thinking that the topic was Irina Slutskaya.

I ran across an obscure message board in the season leading to the Vancouver Games. The title escapes me now; but it was a small forum run by and for music professionals (of the classical type). Some of them played for a living, many were teachers/professors. During the run-up to the Olympics, Yuna developed a surprisingly devoted following there, one of the many reasons being her highly developed sense of musicality and expressiveness, which this group found especially congenial.

Such evidence, while hardly systematic, gives some impetus to considering the possiblity that there are legitimate aesthetic reasons why Yuna, at her best, has received 9s for the artistically-related components.

A couple of caveats:

1) Sometimes a performer or performance simply aren't your cuppa tea. I certainly get that. But fairly often, in my view, personal preferences are conflated with judgments regarding artistic/musical competence.

2) Given Yuna's extended absence, it is certainly possible to make an argument that she hasn't shaken off all of the rust yet. I don't agree with the more extreme versions of this argument, but the moderate versions are at least plausible and can be debated. But this is not the same thing as saying that she was not that good artistically even at her peak (to which, I repeat: the "expert" testimony and competitive evidence constitute a prima facie case which needs to be explained).

3) And, no, I don't think Yuna is perfect in every way.

[bardtoob]

I have complimented Yu Na in the past only to find myself being attacked for not liking her enough. This was a turn off. I think there are holes in Yu Na's skating (some missing jumps, weak spin-spiral positions, etc.), but generally her positive GOEs on what she does well and deserved across the board 8.75 PCS usually should put her in first place if she omits nothing and others do not do extreme perfectly executed backloading or perform 3A ... I certainly put her above Kostner. Mao is Yu Na's Slutskaya.

[sonya71]

The first post of this thread was interesting. I generally agree, except:

- Salchow: Carolina > Mao > Yu-Na
Yuna's salchow is most likely more reliable than Mao's right now, but Yuna's salchow technique is not good, while Mao's is now really good. It's just a matter of time now before Mao lands her salchow more securely.

Skating Skills: Carolina >=Mao > Yu-Na
Yuna is fast, but alot of her speed is generated by 5-6 crossovers. Mao may be slightly slower, but she generates her speed effortlessly. Carolina's skating skills are incredible, but Mao is lighter across the ice.

And an addition:

Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else

[MCC]

The first post of this thread was interesting. I generally agree, except:

- Salchow: Carolina > Mao > Yu-Na
Yuna's salchow is most likely more reliable than Mao's right now, but Yuna's salchow technique is not good, while Mao's is now really good. It's just a matter of time now before Mao lands her salchow more securely.

Skating Skills: Carolina >=Mao > Yu-Na
Yuna is fast, but alot of her speed is generated by 5-6 crossovers. Mao may be slightly slower, but she generates her speed effortlessly. Carolina's skating skills are incredible, but Mao is lighter across the ice.

And an addition:

Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else

Poor Yuna.. became the inferior skater among the three all of a sudden.

[Jenny81]

The first post of this thread was interesting. I generally agree, except:

- Salchow: Carolina > Mao > Yu-Na Yuna's salchow is most likely more reliable than Mao's right now, but Yuna's salchow technique is not good, while Mao's is now really good. It's just a matter of time now before Mao lands her salchow more securely.
Skating Skills: Carolina >=Mao > Yu-Na
Yuna is fast, but alot of her speed is generated by 5-6 crossovers. Mao may be slightly slower, but she generates her speed effortlessly. Carolina's skating skills are incredible, but Mao is lighter across the ice.

And an addition:

Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else

OMG!!!!!!

[FSUSF]

Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else

Pre-rotated Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else
Under-rotated Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else

[Jebrista]

Where did Jebrista say that Mao telegraphed her jumps?

I'm not even sure what telegraphing jumps means. Can you please tell me?

[Sylvia]

<snip trolling post>

"OKAY, WHY DON'T YOU KEYBOARD WARRIORS FIGHT USING PRIVATE MESSAGES INSTEAD OF POLLUTING THIS THREAD?"

I'm not even sure what telegraphing jumps means. Can you please tell me?

Here's one definition: http://iceskatingresources.org/TelegraphingJumps.html

BTW, I've always liked the "old-fashioned" long backwards glide into a triple Lutz, followed by a deepening of the outside edge on takeoff (Paul Wylie's, for example), and think if it's done well, with no perceptible loss of speed or wobbling, then it demonstrates superior edge control and should not be penalized with negative GOE.

ETA: I just watched Kostner's opening 3Lz in her Europeans FS (long backwards glide entry with no loss of speed) and am glad she was rewarded by the judges with +1 to +3 GOE (+1.20 GOE points added).

[Jebrista]

"OKAY, WHY DON'T YOU KEYBOARD WARRIORS FIGHT USING PRIVATE MESSAGES INSTEAD OF POLLUTING THIS THREAD?"



Here's one definition: http://iceskatingresources.org/TelegraphingJumps.html

BTW, I've always liked the "old-fashioned" long backwards glide into a triple Lutz, followed by a deepening of the outside edge on takeoff (Paul Wylie's, for example), and think if it's done well, with no perceptible loss of speed or wobbling, then it demonstrates superior edge control and should not be penalized with negative GOE.

ETA: I just watched Kostner's opening 3Lz in her Europeans FS (long backwards glide entry with no loss of speed) and am glad she was rewarded by the judges with +1 to +3 GOE (+1.20 GOE points added).

Thank you very much

[kwanatic]

Glad to see so much discussion was generated by my little assessment, though I will admit it got a little snippy back there.

With 4CC out of the way and all of the great skating that took place there, I'm more excited than ever for worlds. No, Mao didn't rotate everything she attempted but she did stand up (no falls) and she went for it. I think that's very admirable. Taking the deductions may be worth it b/c even though it wasn't perfect I thought the performance and the program (minus that damn new dress!) were absolutely beautiful.

It's funny b/c I feel like Mao has turned the tables a bit. Whereas before it was all in Yu-Na's hands (ie. if Yu-Na is clean, she'll will), given what Mao has done I think the power has shifted. If Mao is clean or is able to hit the majority of her big tricks, can Yu-Na beat her?

[briancoogaert]

For me, the real highlight, and pure joy of 4CC is Akiko Suzuki.
So, what comparison with the 3 skaters of this thread ?