Yu-Na, Carolina & Mao: A Comparison

[lakewood]

The problem of Caro is that she could never integrate all elements OP listed. In the last Wolds, she could win by restricting her contents to easier ones. If she had tried to include difficult jumps, she may have fell. All the above comparisons are meaningless unless Caro can integrate them.

[Zemgirl]

The problem of Caro is that she could never integrate all elements OP listed. In the last Wolds, she could win by restricting her contents to easier ones. If she had tried to include difficult jumps, she may have fell. All the above comparisons are meaningless unless Caro can integrate them.

Whereas Yuna and Mao always integrate every element into their programs? Not a jump omitted, textbook position for everything, correct technique across the board?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

These are three very talented skaters with different strengths and weaknesses. That's okay. It's fine to like one better even though she's not superior across the board, or to like one less even though she isn't inferior in all respects.

I really don't understand how bots and ubers derive any true enjoyment from skating when they approach it as a zero sum game.

[lakewood]

Whereas Yuna and Mao always integrate every element into their programs? Not a jump omitted, textbook position for everything, correct technique across the board?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

These are three very talented skaters with different strengths and weaknesses. That's okay. It's fine to like one better even though she's not superior across the board, or to like one less even though she isn't inferior in all respects.

I really don't understand how bots and ubers derive any true enjoyment from skating when they approach it as a zero sum game.

YuNa did several times and that is why she set every record of scores. Mao also did a few times. But, I don't know how many times Caro did?

I don't understand how some idiot poster accuse others bot or uber.

[Zemgirl]

YuNa did several times and that is why she set every record of scores. Mao also did a few times. But, I don't know how many times Caro did?

I especially enjoyed Yuna's 3R and Mao's 3S in those performances.

Yes, yes, I know Yuna had to stop doing doing the loop for health reasons. But then, that's exactly why Carolina had to stop doing her 3F and 3Lz, and it's taken her a while to get them back.

If you don't want to be called an uber, don't act like one.

[lakewood]

I especially enjoyed Yuna's 3R and Mao's 3S in those performances.

Yes, yes, I know Yuna had to stop doing doing the loop for health reasons. But then, that's exactly why Carolina had to stop doing her 3F and 3Lz, and it's taken her a while to get them back.

If you don't want to be called an uber, don't act like one.

OP posted YuNa does't attempt 3 loop. Correct. So, YuNa integrated all elements OP mentioned.

[briancoogaert]

The problem of Caro is that she could never integrate all elements OP listed. In the last Wolds, she could win by restricting her contents to easier ones. If she had tried to include difficult jumps, she may have fell. All the above comparisons are meaningless unless Caro can integrate them.

Just a thing : Carolina Kostner has been the only one of those 3 skaters to attempt Long Programs with all 5 triples, including 3/3 combo (2008 Worlds for example). So, we can't compare, as you say.

[johnny158]

Just a thing : Carolina Kostner has been the only one of those 3 skaters to attempt Long Programs with all 5 triples, including 3/3 combo (2008 Worlds for example). So, we can't compare, as you say.

To attempt is one thing, to succeed is another. If I follow your logic, Yuna not only attempted all 5 triples, she succeeded them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=009PmBVxZDI 2007 cor succeeded 5 triples including 3/3 combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYDvQ28JibE 2007 GPF attemped 5 triples including 3/3 combo



Just a thing : Caro also attempted 3lutz and 3flip at Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWgNnJNMuEg

[lakewood]

Just a thing : Carolina Kostner has been the only one of those 3 skaters to attempt Long Programs with all 5 triples, including 3/3 combo (2008 Worlds for example). So, we can't compare, as you say.

That is my point. When she made attemptes, the result was often disastrous. When she didn't, she won World championship (in a weak field without YuNa, Joanni, Mao was weak).

[jiggs]

^ Well, did it ever occur to you that if Yuna attempted the 3loop at more competitions, she would have made more mistakes too? It makes a big psychological difference if you leave out your worst jump and concentrate on the elements you know you can do well. If you say "If she had tried to include difficult jumps (Carolina), she may have fell.", then the same has to be applied for Yuna. Or other skaters who don't do a full set of triples and who leave out their worst jump (Miki for example left out the flip). The definition of "most difficult jump" varies from skater to skater.

Even though Carolina's worst jump has always been the lutz, she attempted it in every single competition from 2002-2009 (and some during the 2009-2010 season). She then left it out because of injury, but is now starting to re-include it, even though she is probably not 100% with it. That is more than can be said of Yuna, so yes, a comparison is indeed - as you say - "meaningless" if it is a "full set of triple" program we are talking about.

These are three very talented skaters with different strengths and weaknesses. That's okay. It's fine to like one better even though she's not superior across the board, or to like one less even though she isn't inferior in all respects.

Thank you! Well said.

[briancoogaert]

That is my point. When she made attemptes, the result was often disastrous. When she didn't, she won World championship (in a weak field without YuNa, Joanni, Mao was weak).

But Carolina would have won 2008 Worlds without Yu Na and with a weak Mao ! And she is still making mistakes, even with less jumps. So, how to compare ?
IMO, Carolina's successes today are not only due to the fact that she doesn't attempt the things she attempted before. Her skating is just better, her style is more polished, she looks more posed.

[l'etoile]

IMO when it comes to skating skills, Yuna and Carolina are just right up there in the stratosphere. Deep edges and speed not lost while skating at all. And it almost seems like they both have no fear of jumps, they're just throwing themselves!
What they differ from each other IMO has mainly something to do with choreography and emoting. Carolina has a FABULOUS Bolero LP with intricate choreo, and Yuna has a BEAUTIFUL LP with very much emoting throughout. If you think about it, programs like Bolero wouldn't fit Yuna as well as Caro and vice versa for programs like Les Miserables. They're exquisite in their own style.

With Caro putting her technical merit back together, I think it'll be between these two for Sochi OGM. I'm really excited to see these two bring wonderful performances at Worlds, REALLY.

[Vash01]

I know that this board is full of Carolina worshippers and Mao haters. A thread like this adds tons of fuel to fire. It's the posters' opportunity to hold up the skaters they love and beat up on those they hate, regardless of facts. The truth is they all are different and have their own strengths. It is impossible to do an apple to apple comparison.

[l'etoile]

I know that this board is full of Carolina worshippers and Mao haters. A thread like this adds tons of fuel to fire. It's the posters' opportunity to hold up the skaters they love and beat up on those they hate, regardless of facts. The truth is they all are different and have their own strengths. It is impossible to do an apple to apple comparison.

True. Analyzing or talking up or nitpicking, it's totally up to skaters themselves in the end.

[shine]

IMO when it comes to skating skills, Yuna and Carolina are just right up there in the stratosphere.

Kim is fast, but she's not quite there with Kostner in terms of pure skating skills. I think her skating skills are good, but it's the power she has that generates a lot of speed. Her edges are not as deep/smooth or effortless.

[ehdtkqorl123]

You're hysterical, I bet you would wipe YNK's butt too if you could. Probably never wash your hand again afterwards to boot.

Whatever you think. I knew this kind of reaction would come out. tsk tsk

[lakewood]

^ Well, did it ever occur to you that if Yuna attempted the 3loop at more competitions, she would have made more mistakes too? It makes a big psychological difference if you leave out your worst jump and concentrate on the elements you know you can do well. If you say "If she had tried to include difficult jumps (Carolina), she may have fell.", then the same has to be applied for Yuna. Or other skaters who don't do a full set of triples and who leave out their worst jump (Miki for example left out the flip). The definition of "most difficult jump" varies from skater to skater.

Even though Carolina's worst jump has always been the lutz, she attempted it in every single competition from 2002-2009 (and some during the 2009-2010 season). She then left it out because of injury, but is now starting to re-include it, even though she is probably not 100% with it. That is more than can be said of Yuna, so yes, a comparison is indeed - as you say - "meaningless" if it is a "full set of triple" program we are talking about.



Thank you! Well said.

I tried to point out that Caro never successfully included all the elements OP wrote as hers, while YuNa did.

And, with 3 loop out, YuNa still keeps highest level of jump difficulty. It is hard to criticise her having a easy jump content. But, with Lz, 3-3 (sometimes flip) out, Caro was heavily criticized as landing only easy jumps. I think that is the difference between YuNa and Caro.

[Zemgirl]

Didn't Kostner land all five triples at this season's Italian Nats? And not that it relates to the subject of jumps, but I believe she was also the first lady to get level 4 on steps - which is certainly to her credit.

Yuna Kim hasn't landed all five triples in five years, clearly by the standards of some posters she is turning in subpar skates

Poor Mao, she seems to have been forgotten. I like Mao, and I admire how she's challenged herself both technically and artistically during her career.

[l'etoile]

Complete set of triples or not, isn't OP's intention for this thread is to talk about these marvelous skaters' present abilities? Why keep insisting on their past track record? Consistency is such a rare quality in figure skating and ones who do have that, immediately owns the field like Plushy, Michelle, and Yuna did. Caro and Mao have had their bad times but that doesn't mean they're no better skaters than Yuna is. If you think about how they have progressed to reach the level they have RIGHT NOW, it is just as amazing as Yuna's consistency.

[loulou]

Have to disagree here. Mao has always shown her courage by fighting back when she was down. It took guts to persist with the 3A- a jump that most ladies don't even attempt, and it took guts to land it three times in the Olympics. It took guts to revamp her jumps completely when judges started giving her low marks for ur. It took guts to completely overhaul her skating even after winning two world championships and an Olympic silver medal. Most skaters would have been satisfied with those accomplishments. To cap it all, she showed great courage in competing at worlds, just a couple months after losing her mother.

Mao has been my all time gold medal for how she conducts herself. She's incredibly gracius, in love with her country even if I swear the press must be following her to the ladies room, grateful to her country for the opportunities she receives (not everyone is) even if they don't hesitate to underline her weaknesses, a person of great sportsmanships, incredibly caring for her family, and at the same time responsable for the commitments she agrees to when she accepts to represent Japan and take financial support.

In my opinion, the hardest thing Asada had to overcome was CoP changings. She didn't develop with them as a growing skater, and they hit hard Asada's weaknesses: short rotations and wrong edges.

[jiggs]

I tried to point out that Caro never successfully included all the elements OP wrote as hers, while YuNa did.

I am sorry but you are wrong. Off the top of my head: 2002 Nebelhorn Trophy, 2003 Europeans, 2005 Worlds, 2006 Europeans, 2007 Europeans, 2007 Grand Prix Final, 2012 Italian Nationals all included 5 different triples and with the exception of 2012, 3-3 combinations.

And, with 3 loop out, YuNa still keeps highest level of jump difficulty. It is hard to criticise her having a easy jump content. But, with Lz, 3-3 (sometimes flip) out, Caro was heavily criticized as landing only easy jumps. I think that is the difference between YuNa and Caro.

I have never critisized and would never critisize Yuna for having easy jump content ;-) I am aware that her technical abilities are amazing, her program content is extremely difficult and that her jumps are of high quality. The discussion going on previously in the thread was about programs that included 5 different triple jumps, and that is what I responded to in my previous post.

A thread like this adds tons of fuel to fire. It's the posters' opportunity to hold up the skaters they love and beat up on those they hate, regardless of facts. The truth is they all are different and have their own strengths. It is impossible to do an apple to apple comparison.

I agree. But while it is impossible to do an apple to apple comparison, this is a discussion board and it is always interesting to read other's opinions. I appreciate kwanatic's post because I think she did a great job evaluating the strenghts and weaknesses of the 3 girls. All three of them are amazing in their own ways, why not talk and discuss about it all?

Complete set of triples or not, isn't OP's intention for this thread is to talk about these marvelous skaters' present abilities? Why keep insisting on their past track record? Consistency is such a rare quality in figure skating and ones who do have that, immediately owns the field like Plushy, Michelle, and Yuna did. Caro and Mao have had their bad times but that doesn't mean they're no better skaters than Yuna is. If you think about how they have progressed to reach the level they have RIGHT NOW, it is just as amazing as Yuna's consistency.

Now I don't know about you guys but I am really looking forward to seeing those three compete against each other at Worlds!