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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Another thing to consider is that the new ISU Junior maximum age rule for male pair/dance partners of 19 will come into effect for the 2014-15 season. For example, Johnson will be 19 and ISU Junior age-eligible for 2013-14 but then will age out before the 2014-15 season.
    Interesting. When was this announced? It puts a new spin on things...are the ISU rules followed domestically or does this only apply to international competitors?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by La La Candy View Post
    Interesting. When was this announced?
    See ISU Rule 108 (Age limits effective July 1st, 2014) that was passed at the ISU Congress in June 2012 - pages 103 ff.: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    It puts a new spin on things...are the ISU rules followed domestically or does this only apply to international competitors?
    USFS has no minimum or maximum age limits for their Novice, Junior, and Senior levels domestically. Does this apply to Skate Canada as well?
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    USFS has no minimum or maximum age limits for their Novice, Junior, and Senior levels domestically. Does this apply to Skate Canada as well?
    I believe so.

    Because it makes so much sense to take spots away from teams, which are actually age-eligible...

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Because it makes so much sense to take spots away from teams, which are actually age-eligible...
    IMO, it's more about a flawed or outdated Nationals qualification system in the U.S. than a pairs age-eligibility issue.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  5. #65

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    The Nationals qualifications system really needs to change. It makes me nuts when I see 21-year-olds competing against the kids in novice.

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    If it wasn't for the 21 year olds, many of the girls would never get to skate pairs at all. That experience helps develop them for later in their careers.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikjil View Post
    The Nationals qualifications system really needs to change. It makes me nuts when I see 21-year-olds competing against the kids in novice.
    So what do you envision as a better system?

    Is the goal to allow only teams who have the potential for senior success with their current partners to compete at all, and anyone else who might be interested in learning pair skating is out of luck?

    Should teams with mismatched ages or skill levels, or teams who are currently too young or too old to compete at their current skill level, allowed to compete in some other events along the way, but not allowed to qualify for nationals?

    I don't understand this thinking. There are few enough pairs in the world, and even within the US. It helps the field as a whole if there are more teams competing. If only ideal teams are allowed to compete, they will often have no one to compete against. Does it really help their development if the size of the field and the size of the country can sustain only one or two pairs competitions a year?

    Plus there could be a number teams that are not ideal now but who will become better matched as they both mature. Or who will each find more appropriate partners after they've had an opportunity to get experience skating pairs. Or only one of whom will go on to success with a more appropriate partner after having learned the basics with a less-ideal partner.

    Without those opportunities, how many of those would-be pair skaters would just give up on the dream of skating pairs and stick to singles, or quit skating entirely and find some other activity that actually lets them participate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    If it wasn't for the 21 year olds, many of the girls would never get to skate pairs at all. That experience helps develop them for later in their careers.
    Exactly.

  8. #68
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    I agree with gkelly and Skittl1321's points. It's NOT about age.

    Re-posting my reply in the U.S. Nationals Novice Pairs thread in Kiss and Cry to clarify what I meant re. the (IMO) "flawed or outdated Nationals qualification system":
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Yes, the current qualifying system is the problem because it is placement-based and not score-based.

    There were 3 Novice pairs at Pacifics that advanced (2 competed), 5 at Easterns (all advanced) and 11 at Mids (ETA: 5 advanced, not 6). As sammyf posted, it was a very uneven distribution of teams this year and many higher scoring teams did not advance from Mids (Egbers/Simon 6th had a higher total score than all the Easterns teams!).
    So, it's logical to say that Egbers/Simon (and possibly other pairs) should have "section-hopped" from the deeper, more competitive Midwestern section, but why should ANY teams (pair or dance) be forced to section-hop, probably at greater expense, in order to have a better shot at qualifying for Nationals? That's the inevitable result of the current qualification system and, IMO, needs to be changed.

    P.S. I apologize to those of you who are opening this thread with bated breath to see which team(s) are the latest to have split.

    ETA: Stacey Siddon, 18, and Jared Weiss, 20 (12th in Junior Dance at 2013 U.S. Nationals) are both listed on IPS as of today. Weiss lists himself as 6'6" / 198 cm tall!
    Last edited by Sylvia; 02-16-2013 at 09:14 PM. Reason: To add a dance split

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    If it wasn't for the 21 year olds, many of the girls would never get to skate pairs at all. That experience helps develop them for later in their careers.
    Good point

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    IETA: Stacey Siddon, 18, and Jared Weiss, 20 (12th in Junior Dance at 2013 U.S. Nationals) are both listed on IPS as of today. Weiss lists himself as 6'6" / 198 cm tall!
    I've seen him in person and yes, he is very tall. But I imagine there are plenty of girls out there who would like to compete in dance but have been told they are too tall for a partner, so he shouldn't have a problem finding prospective partners.

    I noticed Allison Timlen, who competed at Nationals in Novice (2010) and Junior (2011 and 2012) is now seeking a pairs partner. Hopefully she can find a partner for the coming season.

    I agree that unbalanced sections is a big problem and there are so many instances where choosing the top 12 skaters across sections would be more fair. But I could see the potential for problems, like score inflation (i.e. let's fill Nats with skaters from our section) and qualifying comps could get even more political. And what if something happens to the judging system due to extenuating circumstances? I'm thinking about Easterns 2 seasons ago in Aston, PA, where there was a fire in one of the locker rooms overnight, forcing the next day's events to be relocated to another rink in the facility, and paper-and-pencil judging was used (IJS system was set up in the other rink and it would have been too time-consuming to move it for the day), with no replays. UR's were sight-only and comparing the protocols for the groups that had the SP and LP on different rinks/different judging systems, I remember thinking some of the skaters may have benefited from the lack of replay.
    Last edited by Debbie S; 02-16-2013 at 09:50 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debbie S View Post
    I noticed Allison Timlen, who competed at Nationals in Novice (2010) and Junior (2011 and 2012) is now seeking a pairs partner. Hopefully she can find a partner for the coming season.
    I saw her new IPS profile, too, and think she may have good pairs potential (IIRC, others here have mentioned her name as a possibility before) - I hope she can find a suitable partner in the U.S.!

    I agree that unbalanced sections is a big problem and there are so many instances where choosing the top 12 skaters across sections would be more fair. But I could see the potential for problems, like score inflation (i.e. let's fill Nats with skaters from our section) and qualifying comps could get even more political.
    Right, so are these good enough reasons for USFS to consider reducing the current 3 Sectional qualifying competitions to 2 or maybe even 1, like Skate Canada's Challenge?

    ETA:
    Steven Pottenger has a new IPS profile up today but he's NOT looking for a partner with whom to compete. Instead, he's advertising his services as a pairs coach for Juvenile on up: "My goal is to train good freestyle girls who want to learn how to skate pairs. With a little experience it will be easier to get a partner." Here's his Coach page on the new website for the Canton, Michigan training rink: http://internationalskatingacademy.c...ven-pottenger/
    Last edited by Sylvia; 02-16-2013 at 10:27 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  12. #72
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    I love Pottenger's idea

    . In Dance, don't coaches pair with their students for tests?
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Finally, Alison! This is GREAT news!!!
    Beefcake's fancy, saccharine, artsy, drag bingo cliche effusing, bipolar, OTT fashionista manchild

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Right, so are these good enough reasons for USFS to consider reducing the current 3 Sectional qualifying competitions to 2 or maybe even 1, like Skate Canada's Challenge?
    Hmmm, well, one one hand, it could decrease the politiks and would also decrease the amount of clubs needed to host Sectionals. But it would also increase the expenses of the clubs hosting Sectionals (and probably require more ice time/surfaces). And the expenses of the skaters, who would probably have to travel further. Maybe the solution to politiks is to have equal judging representation from all 3 sections at each Sectionals, if they do go the top-12 route. But that would probably also increase expenses for the host club. Sigh...I guess I have no solution....

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Right, so are these good enough reasons for USFS to consider reducing the current 3 Sectional qualifying competitions to 2 or maybe even 1, like Skate Canada's Challenge?
    Yes. It's silly that geographic location can play such a huge part in qualifying for Nationals. Lopsided sections are inevitable, and "desperate" skaters sometimes play the game of switching clubs and sections when in need of an easier road to Nationals. Some pair teams will find a section that doesn't even have 4 pairs in it so that they can automatically qualify to Nationals without even showing up, which just seems lame.

    Reducing the number of qualifying competitions would help ensure that all the nation's best skaters are getting to Nationals, not just because of geography, but also because it may be easier psychologically on a kid going into a qualifier knowing they have to be, say, top 10 or 15 to qualify for Nationals instead of medal worthy. You can bet plenty of Nationals-worthy skaters having melted down at Sectionals over the years under the pressure of having to finish all the way up in the top 4.
    Last edited by stjeaskategym; 02-17-2013 at 02:03 AM.

  16. #76

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    For pairs and dance, they could just have one qualifier held at one of the sections. E.g., one year all the pairs could go to Midwesterns and all the dance teams to Easterns, and the next year the pairs event could be at Pacific Coasts and dance at Mids, etc.

    For singles, especially the girls, there would still need to be earlier rounds of cuts before sectionals. It's usually at the regional level that inequitable numbers of competitors are an issue -- at sectionals the numbers are the same, although there may be variance in where the very best skaters happen to be located that year at that level. So I'm not sure how combining sectionals would solve the problem of uneven size/strength of various regions.

    I can see how it would, as stjeaskategym suggests, take the pressure off some of the better skaters who suffer from nerves when qualification for the big event is on the line.

  17. #77
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    Yes, what Sylvia said. The system does need a complete overhaul.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    For pairs and dance, they could just have one qualifier held at one of the sections. E.g., one year all the pairs could go to Midwesterns and all the dance teams to Easterns, and the next year the pairs event could be at Pacific Coasts and dance at Mids, etc.
    Okay!

    For singles, especially the girls, there would still need to be earlier rounds of cuts before sectionals. ... So I'm not sure how combining sectionals would solve the problem of uneven size/strength of various regions.
    Well, since this is a pairs/dance thread, let's shelve the U.S. singles qualifying dilemma for the time being.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  19. #79
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    When I went to the regional Metropolitan Opera Council Auditions a few years ago at Meany Hall on the University of Washington campus in Seattle, one of the contestants was in the Ladies room while I was standing on line. She was listed as from Houston in the program, and one of the audience members on the line told her how much she liked her performance of "Einsam in trueben Tagen" from Lohengrin, and she asked what her connection to the Northwest, thinking maybe she had been a member of the Seattle Opera Young Artists Program or was studying Wagner with Jane Eaglen, who taught at UW. The singer replied that she picked Northwest because she thought she had a better chance than whatever region Houston is in. (She was a member of the Houston Grand Opera Studio at the time.) She was completely open about it, no hesitation whatsoever; she was from Richland, Washington, and she could have just said she grew up in the region.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 02-17-2013 at 06:30 AM.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  20. #80
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    Couple things: I don't think there should be an age limit for novice & junior domestically. If a 22 year old man switches from singles to pairs, why should he have to compete senior his first year? It'd make it much harder for him to find a partner, it'd make for more duds at nationals, and frankly it'd be dangerous for him to try such hard elements in his first season (on most occasions anyways).

    Second: Maybe Allison will tryout with Rockne? She is the right size. Interesting!

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