Figure Skating's Popularity Decline In The US

[cruisin]

I think figure skating is still suffering from the SLC fiasco and the generally incomprehensible judging system. I also think that with the economy being so weak, people have less money for their kids to participate in figure skating. Figure skating has always been expensive, but now that is more of a deterrent. And people tend to follow sports they are involved with.

[danceronice]

I don't know that most people, especially in the younger demographic, remember much detail about SLC, but the incomprehensible judging system does not help. And I can't believe people think throwing even more numbers and decimals and terms on the screen will help. Interactive pop-ups for people streaming their television, maybe ("Go here for a breakdown of Skater A's score"), but making it look MORE esoteric in real time is not going to invite viewers. People don't want a bunch of numbers thrown at them, they want a simple, clear explanation of why someone's overall score was low or high--slo-mo replays showing where someone underrotated, for example. Still something the commentators could help with a LOT. Viewers understand "fall means bad", "popped jump is not good", but things like URs and step-sequence levels where you can't see what's going on aren't accessible.

Allowing lyrics and more contemporary music? Yes, that very well may help. The question is, will anyone risk being the first person to skate to something way out of the ballet-and-classical box? And what will the judges do with them? If they dogpile the first person who really steps outside the box, that's going to turn viewers off, too, because clearly the people running things are fuddy-duddies. I don't mean they ought to give bonus points for looking like "Poker Face", but no suspicious suddenly-low PCS for the skater who starts using lyrics.

[Philly2034]

A few things. First, focussing on the Olympics is really only a very small part of the story. Olympics are a unique event. Quite a few sports draw viewers during the Olympics and then disappear for 4 years. The strength of FS has been that it has not disappeared but was strong on its own. This is clearly fading in many parts of the world. And this means loss of money to the ISU and to federations. Second, I completely agalisgv's point that it simply is not appealing to younger demographics and this is a very discouraging trend. But it is old fashioned and rather incomprehensible. Third, I do not agree that a lady contender from the US will revive ratings in a material way. It may have a short term increase but it will not, in and to itself, reach a younger demographic and encourage new viewers. Look at the Canadian ratings. They were huge for the Olympics. Virtue/Moir were household names. Chan got tons of coverage. Yet after the games, despite both Virtue/Moir and Chan being world champions, TV numbers are sliding and I'm willing to bet, sliding very badly in the younger demographics. All people in FS need to recognize this trend and figure out that significant changes must be made to the sport and yes, the sport must be marketed (shock). Otherwise it will be a marginalized sport that gets a bit more attention in the Olympic years like so many other sports.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[MacMadame]

I don't think you could show the GOE input by the judges live.

Of course you could. The technology exists.

Sometimes a judge might not put in the GOE right away. There are several different reasons why they might need to wait till after the program to score a particular element, or might change the GOE after seeing the finalized tech panel calls after the reviews. So even if some of the judges scored the element in real time and the computer took the average and fed it to the broadcast team immediately, those scores would be temporary.

But those are reasons why you might not want to, not why it's impossible.

My experience from watching a lot of lower level competitions from right next to the jduges table is that most judges put their marks in right after the elements happen and don't make big changes afterwards. But, if the TV producers didn't think the numbers coming from the computers were enlightening enough, they could chose not to show some of them.

I'm pretty sure based on some things that the commentators have said on the TV broadcasts, that at least some of this data is actually available to some members of the broadcast team but it's not being utilized very much.

Allowing lyrics and more contemporary music? Yes, that very well may help. The question is, will anyone risk being the first person to skate to something way out of the ballet-and-classical box? And what will the judges do with them? If they dogpile the first person who really steps outside the box, that's going to turn viewers off, too, because clearly the people running things are fuddy-duddies. I don't mean they ought to give bonus points for looking like "Poker Face", but no suspicious suddenly-low PCS for the skater who starts using lyrics.

You say this as if no one uses lyrics now. They use them in Dance so we know the answers to these questions already which are... even the first season a few people will be willing to use lyrics and the judges won't dogpile on them.

[Japanfan]

I find my interest in figure skating has waned a bit this year, and for that I thank the CBC. I am rarely if ever able to watch live coverage on-line and don't know if, or how, to access archived coverage after the event. If there is anyway that anyone knows, please let me know.

Watching on TV is still my preferred method, although I can have a handy PC to TV converter that I'd use if I could get archived coverage.

When BOLD was showing close to entire competitions, I loved it. But that is no longer happening and the CBC coverage is lacking. Too much fluff and the 'Saturday Sports' slots that show figure skating are peppered with news on other sports.

For years I've gone through both stress and depression due to wondering about what CBC would show. Now I'm just resigned to their not being much and find I don't really care. I still want to see as much as can, but it is no longer so very important.

[skateboy]

Scott Hamilton became a huge star is the US, especially after his Olympic win. (Just saying that it's not always a woman that gets famous after winning...) I'd venture a guess that more people know who he is than Kristi, Tara, Sarah... maybe even Michelle.

I think, as with other less popular sports, FS peaks people's interest every four years at the Olympics and that's pretty much it. (I'll admit, the Olympics are the only time I follow short-track skating, speed skating, bobsledding, all the skiing events, etc.) One issue is that, to the casual observer, all jumps look the same in the air, so there's no for them to know that a lutz is ten times more difficult than a toe-loop. The only thing they know is that triples are harder than doubles, quads are harder than triples and falls are a complete disruption of a program. (I've watched comps with non-skating fan friends and they often gasp when someone falls--as they would when a gymnast falls off of an apparatus.)

The IJS just confuses them more, as they don't understand (or care about) protocols, and the idea that a skater with falls can beat someone who didn't is incomprehensible to them. Can't say I really blame them...

[gkelly]

Of course you could. The technology exists.

I'm not saying the technology doesn't exist.

I'm saying that
1) there's going to be a slight delay between the skater performing the element and the scores being available to show on screen, by which time the skater might have started the next element
and
2) there will be some omissions and errors of some judges' GOEs along the way that will get fixed after the program is over and before the official scores are announced, which means the scores shown onscreen in real time would be incomplete and/or incorrect

1) Even for the majority of scores for which the judges can input the scores immediately, there's a delay of a second or two for reaction time. The sequence of events is:

Skater performs the element (or enough of it for the tech specialist to make the call)
Tech specialist says the name of the element
Data operator inputs the code
Cursor and code show up on the judges's screens in the box for that element
Judge clicks the intended score
All judges' scores are sent through the official scoring computer to the network computer
Network computer (or live technician?) waits for a preset amount of time or number of judges' scores to be input before displaying all of them or calculating the average and displaying that

Even assuming that all the events that the computers do take 1 millisecond each, the tasks that the humans do will take maybe 0.5 seconds on average. That adds up to 1-2 seconds after the element is completed. The audience would experience a slight delay between seeing the element and seeing the score. No more than between seeing an element and hearing a commentator remark on it, but it could be disorienting in the minority of occasions when one element begins no more than 2 seconds after the last one ended.

My experience from watching a lot of lower level competitions from right next to the jduges table is that most judges put their marks in right after the elements happen and don't make big changes afterwards.

The majority of elements are straightforward and don't need more than 1 or 2 seconds to input the marks. This will be more true at the higher levels.

2) But some elements are not straightforward and may inspire judges to check written rules or wait for the tech panel calls after the reviews to finalize the GOE.

Most obvious example. At the beginning of a senior lady's short program the skater does not-too-difficult steps into a triple flip and turns out of the landing. Was that the solo jump (-2) or an incomplete attempt at the combination (-3)? Even the skater might not be 100% sure whether she'll be able to put a combination on the second triple until she gets there, although a wise one will have planned to have that option.

The tech panel will just call it as 3F in real time and judges may all put in their automatic -2 right away.

If the skater goes on to do steps into 3Lo+2T+COMBO, then the 3F code stays as is, along with its associated GOEs.

If the skater does steps into 3Lo successfully without attempting the combo, then the tech panel will have to go back afterward and add the +COMBO code to the solo 3F.

If the skater fails on the second triple attempt and can't do the combo there either, then the tech panel needs to decide which jump pass was intended as the combination (planned program content sheet would help here) and add the +COMBO code to that one.

In either case, if the 3F code gets changed to +COMBO after the program, the judges would need to go back and change their -2s to -3s.

This will all look very smooth while the program is in process, but the code and numbers that could be displayed on the screen in real time for that 3F would be incorrect.

Not to mention that, aside from GOEs, any element with a review might have a different final base mark than that associated with the code that was put in in real time. So if the computer is displaying base marks on the screen in real time, those numbers are often going to change.

But, if the TV producers didn't think the numbers coming from the computers were enlightening enough, they could chose not to show some of them.

If the producers had to make the decision in real time which scores to show and which not, that would further delay the rhythm. More likely they'd have an algorithm not to show the GOEs if fewer than X judges had input marks by X seconds after the element, or not to show the call for any element that also had a Review call (better yet they could show the initial call and add a graphic to indicate that the element was called for review)

I'm pretty sure based on some things that the commentators have said on the TV broadcasts, that at least some of this data is actually available to some members of the broadcast team but it's not being utilized very much.

I doubt the GOEs are displayed to the commentators in real time. They probably get the tech panel calls.

Just showing the code or name of the element as called, with a graphic flag to indicate those called for review, would be a lot more feasible than calculating and displaying actual scores from partial, temporary input.

[antmanb]

My experience from watching a lot of lower level competitions from right next to the jduges table is that most judges put their marks in right after the elements happen and don't make big changes afterwards. But, if the TV producers didn't think the numbers coming from the computers were enlightening enough, they could chose not to show some of them.

I'm pretty sure based on some things that the commentators have said on the TV broadcasts, that at least some of this data is actually available to some members of the broadcast team but it's not being utilized very much.

I personally don't think it helps to have commentators using the non-final numbers to comment while we're waiting for the scores to come up. I forget which championships it was - either Europeans or Worlds last year and the British Eurosport team were watching the scores live from the moment the skater finished til they received their marks. I think it was Simon Reed who kept saying that the person was on X score (often much higher than the eventual score) "depending on what the outcome of the reviews are" invariably after all the reviewed elements were scored the score came down. It left the impression that the score should have been what he initially said but then the judges fiddled with the scores to end up with the final mark. To me it gave the impression of being muddled, and by the end I was screaming at the telly that I didn't care what the scores were at that moment in time i just care what the final score is.

What I do appreciate is the helpful comments from, i think it was Chris Howarth who often calls levels in real time or during the replay of steps and spins, when they tech panel would firm up the level or downgrade something, he'd comment on that before the score came up - that was much more helpful. I don't think they had the information available all the way through the programme though it seems they were watching a live screen with the judges marks and calls being finalised and moving.

[Paul]

I don't know that most people, especially in the younger demographic, remember much detail about SLC, but the incomprehensible judging system does not help. And I can't believe people think throwing even more numbers and decimals and terms on the screen will help. Interactive pop-ups for people streaming their television, maybe ("Go here for a breakdown of Skater A's score"), but making it look MORE esoteric in real time is not going to invite viewers. People don't want a bunch of numbers thrown at them, they want a simple, clear explanation of why someone's overall score was low or high--slo-mo replays showing where someone underrotated, for example. Still something the commentators could help with a LOT. Viewers understand "fall means bad", "popped jump is not good", but things like URs and step-sequence levels where you can't see what's going on aren't accessible.

I think this is a very accurate statement. There seems to be the belief that if we give the audience more information about th IJS, they will embrace it and love it. Maybe yes for the avid fan. But the sport already has that fan. So by all means do it but at the same time recognize it will not attract new or casual fans. The new or casual fan won't care at all about trying to figure it out. For them its about being entertained in a modern and fresh way with something they can understand and enjoy. I think that FS has become so obsessed with the IJS and defining elements and points with such accuracy to avoid unjustifiable results, it is killing the spirit of the sport. Killing the connection between the audience and the skater and this is what makes FS unusual in the sport world. It combines artistry and athleticism. This needs to be embraced NOT marginalized. The goal should be for the scoring system to produce consistently justifiable results but not consistently perfect results as defined by a small group of highly engaged people who live in their own FS world. This just marginalizes the fan and makes FS more and more for a small group of people which ultimately will result in it being completely irrelevant. Ironically, I think the IJS needs to be simplified and relaxed to allow the athletes to explore creativity and bring the fan engagement back.

Allowing lyrics and more contemporary music? Yes, that very well may help. The question is, will anyone risk being the first person to skate to something way out of the ballet-and-classical box? And what will the judges do with them? If they dogpile the first person who really steps outside the box, that's going to turn viewers off, too, because clearly the people running things are fuddy-duddies. I don't mean they ought to give bonus points for looking like "Poker Face", but no suspicious suddenly-low PCS for the skater who starts using lyrics.

Agree completely. This is an opportunity for the sport. But it can quickly be killed. And unfortunately, many in power do not seem willing to recognize the weakness of FS currently and long for the return to the glory days. The current path will not return the sport to anything remotely resembling glory.

[joeperryfan]

Agree completely. This is an opportunity for the sport. But it can quickly be killed. And unfortunately, many in power do not seem willing to recognize the weakness of FS currently and long for the return to the glory days. The current path will not return the sport to anything remotely resembling glory.

I too agree with this, the fans are being alienated, especially the younger fans, the mindset in terms of marketing is stuck in the 90s and there's a bunch of people trying to repeat formulas that used to work as if the internet had never happened. Media outlets for figure skating are dying, many magazines have shut doors, newspapers rarely publish anything and if they do it's not precisely top notch quality, which leaves us with websites, but the ISu clearly doesn't know what to do with these, the sport needs a good reference base so that the new and recurring fans can fallback to it to keep interested..., the skaters need to be marketed as if they were teen idols, the judges need to be open to new sounds... In this regard I mss acrogym, there was lots of music diversity there, but lately the pwetty seems to be taking over too... hope I'm wrong.

[Paul]

the mindset in terms of marketing is stuck in the 90s and there's a bunch of people trying to repeat formulas that used to work as if the internet had never happened.

I don't believe you are wrong. This kind of behaviour has been written about in business books. It worked in the 90s and essentially, this was a business algorithm that was consistent and repeatedly successful. However, the time any algorithm works is finite. Of course, one does not know how long it will work but eventually it will cease to work. I would argue that many warning signals were studiously ignored by those in power. To persist with a broken model will not succeed. At the same time as FS plods on with old tactics, other sports such as hockey, basketball, baseball, soccer constantly evolve their model to respond to changing society and fans. Of course these have professional organization to help them. But still, they are the competition. And new sports have found ways to create an environment that young fans find appealing eg snowboard, freestyle skiing.

Of course, much of this is to be expected as so many in power in the federations and for sure the ISU are at the top end of the age bracket and their primary goal I believe is to protect their positions and perks. They have neither the incentive nor the ability to create a new model for FS. And this is very sad.

[joeperryfan]

I would argue that many warning signals were studiously ignored by those in power. To persist with a broken model will not succeed. At the same time as FS plods on with old tactics, other sports such as hockey, basketball, baseball, soccer constantly evolve their model to respond to changing society and fans. Of course these have professional organization to help them. But still, they are the competition. And new sports have found ways to create an environment that young fans find appealing eg snowboard, freestyle skiing.

As long as they managed to make deals with tv stations for large amounts of money as they do in Japan I don't think they'll be too worried about change. You mentioned several team sports, it's easier for them to change simply because their fan bases aren't constantly subjected to the loss of their favorites, the team is always there with its associated fanclub, merchandise and nemesis team,in individual sports every four years we lose longtime favorites, it's heartbreaking and there isn't always someone else to take their place in our radars of interest. Sports like snowboarding or surfing have managed to create a lifestyle around them which is a great help and they've also been coined as cool, when was FS ever cool? It's hard to work with that but not impossible. It's necessary to fight the amorphism of skaters, they can't be all the same bunch of smiling clean cut teens, people need to be able to choose who they want to root for, if everyone looks the same at a glance they can't do it. This is where the ISU can really help, if diversity of styles is encouraged amongst the judges and the skaters embrace it, then the fans will pay attention again.

[Paul]

As long as they managed to make deals with tv stations for large amounts of money as they do in Japan I don't think they'll be too worried about change.

At the ISU level, perhaps, but the pressure will build from the federations. They don't get this money and as events lose audience, they are more expensive and the ISU will have to pay more to have their events hosted. Ultimately it will collapse although I agree it will not happen quickly.

You mentioned several team sports, it's easier for them to change simply because their fan bases aren't constantly subjected to the loss of their favorites, the team is always there with its associated fanclub, merchandise and nemesis team,in individual sports every four years we lose longtime favorites, it's heartbreaking and there isn't always someone else to take their place in our radars of interest. Sports like snowboarding or surfing have managed to create a lifestyle around them which is a great help and they've also been coined as cool, when was FS ever cool? It's hard to work with that but not impossible. It's necessary to fight the amorphism of skaters, they can't be all the same bunch of smiling clean cut teens, people need to be able to choose who they want to root for, if everyone looks the same at a glance they can't do it. This is where the ISU can really help, if diversity of styles is encouraged amongst the judges and the skaters embrace it, then the fans will pay attention again.

Again, totally agree. There is no point emulating exactly these other sports. I think it is essential that the ISU recognize and promote the advantages FS has. Its unique selling propositions. And they do exist. But I don't think they have any idea how to do this. Of course a council with an average age of 70 doesn't help.

[manhn]

When BOLD was showing close to entire competitions, I loved it. But that is no longer happening and the CBC coverage is lacking. Too much fluff and the 'Saturday Sports' slots that show figure skating are peppered with news on other sports.

BOLD was reliable in showing Skate Canada, Canadian Nationals and Worlds in their entirety. But TSN/CTV now have the rights to Skate Canada (which is shown in completion) and Canadian Nationals (less so). BOLD will still show Worlds in completion.

The Grand Prix except Skate Canada has always been shown the way you described it. GPF and 4CC is more inconsistent--we got everything from GPF last season because it was held in Canada. Same with 4CC in 2009 when it was in Vancouver (we did get it in 2010 when it was in Korea but that was a fluke).

[joeperryfan]

At the ISU level, perhaps, but the pressure will build from the federations. They don't get this money and as events lose audience, they are more expensive and the ISU will have to pay more to have their events hosted. Ultimately it will collapse although I agree it will not happen quickly.

Good point! The loss of popularity should be particularly bad in huge countries like the US or Canada that have proportional huge expenses(I'm guessing here).

Again, totally agree. There is no point emulating exactly these other sports. I think it is essential that the ISU recognize and promote the advantages FS has. Its unique selling propositions. And they do exist. But I don't think they have any idea how to do this. Of course a council with an average age of 70 doesn't help.

Well, one thing is for sure, with that average they will have to pass the torch sooner or later... I have to wonder, in your opinion what are FS's unique selling propositions?

[gkelly]

As long as they managed to make deals with tv stations for large amounts of money as they do in Japan I don't think they'll be too worried about change. You mentioned several team sports, it's easier for them to change simply because their fan bases aren't constantly subjected to the loss of their favorites, the team is always there with its associated fanclub, merchandise and nemesis team,in individual sports every four years we lose longtime favorites, it's heartbreaking and there isn't always someone else to take their place in our radars of interest.

Very true.

Sports like snowboarding or surfing have managed to create a lifestyle around them which is a great help and they've also been coined as cool, when was FS ever cool? It's hard to work with that but not impossible. It's necessary to fight the amorphism of skaters, they can't be all the same bunch of smiling clean cut teens, people need to be able to choose who they want to root for, if everyone looks the same at a glance they can't do it. This is where the ISU can really help, if diversity of styles is encouraged amongst the judges and the skaters embrace it, then the fans will pay attention again.

The Short Dance is an area where the ISU could directly encourage a fresher look by choosing contemporary dance styles as required or allowed rhythms.

But for areas where the skaters get to choose their own music and choreography and themes, there's not much the ISU can do officially. I think a lot of the time skaters choose sweeping or lyrical music because it fits well with the gliding quality of the movement that is fundamental to the sport of figure skating. Skaters may choose more recent lyrical music, but that will always be a favorite of skaters to skate to because it complements what they're doing on the ice. Also I think skaters who need to concentrate on the technique of executing difficult jumps may choose calm music that doesn't demand detailed rhythmic precision because it helps them get the jumps landed -- but the music and the performance to music don't inspire audiences, regardless of generational affiliation.

We'll see what happens with vocal music. My main concern is the lyrics distracting from the actual skating, but hopefully the skaters and choreographers will choose wisely.

Maybe there could be some way for the ISU to put out rules or other communications indicating that judges should make more effort to reward originality of music choice and movement style, variety of rhythms throughout a program (preferably in an artistically coherent way and not the pasted-together music selections of so many pre-1990s programs), and fine detail in the relation of movement rhythms to music rhythms on a beat-to-beat rather than just phrase-by-phrase level. Much of this is already there in the PCS and GOE rules, but not explicitly enough to really encourage it from skaters for whom it doesn't come naturally.

If the judges are officially instructed to reward these things and skaters know it, that could encourage more skaters to put more of their efforts in that direction. E.g., maybe make it worth more to perform a high-quality spin that really matches the music or enhances the program theme than to gain one more level with one more difficult position that interferes with the quality.

I don't think there should be a specific scoring reward for choosing more contemporary music, but it wouldn't hurt for the ISU to put out an official encouragement to skaters to use styles of music that can work well with skating movement and also appeal to 21st century audiences -- with positive examples.

At the ISU level, perhaps, but the pressure will build from the federations.

The problem is that different federations might have different needs in terms of how to appeal to their domestic audiences. If the US and French and Russian federations each have different ideas of how to get more US or French or Russian viewers to watch skating broadcasts, then if the ISU bows to pressure from the Russian federation they might lose more viewers in the US or vice versa.

But aside from rule changes that apply across all competitions, each of the federations can make changes in how they stage their domestic events and market them to their national media.

[MacMadame]

gkelly, I think you are making it too complicated.

I think it's perfectly possible to show the planned elements before it happens in a box, followed by the called element and a mark if the panel is going to Review it afterwards. I think it would be a good thing if the commentators said, that was a 3F but the panel is going to review it so it might get downgraded. If they said that 10 times during Mirai's Nationals performance, I think the audience wouldn't have been so shocked by her scores. Instead, Scott acts like all jumps that are eeked out count exactly the same even though they don't. No wonder the audience is confused.

And I think some of you are projecting... this "incomprehensible" system is a lot easier to understand than 6.0 where one skater in 2nd place and then a skater skates, is in 4th place but now the 2nd place skater is in 1st place. Or 3rd. Try as hard as you can, the majority of people will NEVER understand that.

The nice thing about having a box in the corner of the screen with more info is that, if you aren't someone who enjoys numbers, you can ignore it. But, if the numbers mean something to you, they are there. And some fans will becomes more educated over time, which can only be a good thing.

[manhn]

Exactly, what do people miss when figure skating was "popular"? Did you actually see more figure skating? Maybe for Americans (a big one--if you get Universal Sports, then you're living large), television is tough. But with the advent of internet, you can watch almost anything if you want (I rarely do). Canadians have nothing to complain about.

Yes, there are fewer cheesefests. I miss the occasional cheesefest.

If the young people begin loving this sport, what do you expect will happen with coverage of figure skating? I mean, how much surfing is on television?

[Paul]

I have to wonder, in your opinion what are FS's unique selling propositions?

Well, this would only be my top of head thoughts. What would be interesting would be to survey focus groups of fans, casual and committed to find out what draws them to the sport. But for starters, its one of the very few sports that combines athletics and artistry. This has the capacity for reaching the fans emotionally in a way that is different to other sports. Then it would require thoughts as to how to capitalize but it is certainly there. Another, at least in North America, is the largely female fan base. This allows a different approach to marketing compared to a hockey. Again, in North America, with all the attention around head injuries in contact sports, there is the ability to promote the lack of violence - yes I realize injuries happen but I haven't seen a figure skating event where there is a bench clearing brawl. There is the capacity to capitalize on the glamour aspect of the sport. This needs care to not be elitist but could be done. With changes to the execution of events, there would be possibilities of drawing families but this requires format changes as currently its too boring. I'm sure there are more and people smarter than I could figure them out and how to capitalize but its a start at least.

[gkelly]

gkelly, I think you are making it too complicated.

I think it's perfectly possible to show the planned elements before it happens in a box, followed by the called element and a mark if the panel is going to Review it afterwards. I think it would be a good thing if the commentators said, that was a 3F but the panel is going to review it so it might get downgraded.

Yes, I think that is all possible.

What I do not think is feasible is to show the numerical scores including the judges' GOEs.

Just show what the element was called as, the base mark for the element as called and a graphic indication (different color?) if there was also a review called so viewers would know that the base mark might change.

Specifically, jumps that have underrotation or downgrade calls assigned after review will get lower base marks. Non-jump elements might have their level call revised. Some elements might end up getting no points if it turns out there's a rule violation of some sort.

Viewers would also need to know that the element probably won't receive exactly the base mark because of positive or negative GOE, which will be added to/subtracted from the finalized base mark later.

Commentators can certainly do a better job of making viewers aware of how all this works.